果冻出品：凯蒂 "跟上现实”深度访谈（连载7）

starinheart

果冻叨叨：因为补充了很多内容，果冻也觉得非常精彩的片段。所以重新发一下，以飨大家。

starinheart

版权归作者所有，任何形式转载请联系作者。
作者：果冻.Angela（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/note/691547436/

接上~  

JoB：

Now, the difference between joy and pleasure is?

现在来看，内心的喜悦和感官的愉悦之前的区别是什么？

Kaite:

Pleasure is the story of a future, and so it can never be repeated. We experience someting mind thinks that like, it's how it stays identified, and then it tries over and over and over to have the same experience again, and it's all just , an illusion. you know, trying to repeat what followed those never happened, because mind builds things up. So it's um, you know. pleasure , it's ,, all pleasure is pain.

感官的愉悦是一个关于未来的故事（果冻补充：错失了当下。），所以它永远无法复制出来。我体验到一些心念认为它所喜欢的东西。这就是心念之所以能够保持自己身份认定的方式。心念一再地尝试、尝试，想要去体验与那同样的感觉。可是那种“愉悦感” 只是，只是一种幻像。要知道，想要去重现那些从未发生过的事情（果冻补充：愉悦感是一种念头的投射，与事情本身无关。），因为所有的感觉都是念头所建立出来的（过去所有的事情，都是念头的幻像。where is your prove？）。所以，嗯，感官愉悦，所有的感官愉悦都是痛苦。

JoB:

Excuse me, all the..

你说的，所有的。。。

Katie:

Simply because it is projected. You just can't have the same experience twice.

简单来说，因为”愉悦感“ 是被心念投射出来的一个故事而已。你无法对同一件事情体验两次。

（果冻补充：因为人类的时间轴是单向的，所以无法重复同样的经历。有句名言，“一个人不能两次踏进同一条河流”。

所以，如果你认定过去的某些行为或某种体验为“愉悦”的（事情在过去，头脑已体验），并赋予这个行为一个“愉悦”的标签，那么下次想再次体验完全一模一样的行为，从时间轴来讲是根本不可能的。

如果你在头脑中认定未来将要做的某些行为或某种体验是“愉悦”的（事情在未来，头脑已体验），并赋予这个行为一个“愉悦”的标签，这个“愉悦感”也成为一种过去态了，因为你已经在头脑中体验完毕。所以如果想再次体验完全一模一样的行为，从时间轴来讲也是根本不可能的。）

JoB:

So, pleasure is pain.

所以，愉悦就是痛苦。

Katie:

Simply because it's projected. you can't ,it can not repeat the same thing twice. when it comes to pleasure, the emotional. That's why for drug addicts, the drug stops working, or it just doesn't work as well, and then they just end up addicted without the pleasure and just living a life of hell. And the same for compulsive overeaters or any addictions.

只是因为那种“愉悦感”是心念投射出来的。

（果冻补充：换句话说，你在头脑中将得到某些东西、或者做了某件事情之后的身体或心理上的某种感受，那种无名的东西，定义为“愉悦”。而这只是一个心念编造的故事而已。对于一个感受，区分了好与坏，愉悦与难受，也就是凯蒂所说的naming it . 所以你对事物的二元性认知，造出了这个故事。凯蒂常说去质疑有压力的念头。常人会从愤怒、悲伤、失望、沮丧入手，但其实同样的因某事某物的愉悦、快乐、兴奋、满足等等，一样也只是你的故事而已。有了二元的分别，人就会不自觉地去执取，趋利避害，想要获得愉悦感，也是对当下的一种细微的否定。

同时，依附于上“愉悦感” 的画面出现了，过去、未来、过去、未来一系列画面。

第二层级的故事是，你认定了 “因为A所以B。即，因为做了某事，所以有了愉悦感。" 的这个故事。所以你为了追求B，不断去重复A行为，造成对A行为的上瘾。）

你不能，同一样事情无法被重复体验。当我们说到愉悦感的时候，那种情感上的，，，

（果冻补充：类似悲伤、恐惧、喜欢、害怕、愉悦。所有的情绪或体验的认定，都是你的故事。除了故事，它只是心跳加速，血液上升，精神舒缓等等身体的事实样貌而已。）

这也是为什么瘾君子，毒品不再起作用了，或者不像以前效果那么好了，然后他们就沦为毒瘾，却体会不到快乐，只是活在地狱中。对于强迫性进食症，或者其他上瘾的症状都是一样的道理。（不是A行为无效了，只是因为同样的B经验只可以被体会一次。而且B体验本身是非真的，想要让它成真便与真相相悖了。）

And addictions are nothing more than ,than ,um, sth that we resort to when we don't know how to deal with our thoughts,and we want mind to stop or change. In other words, how do you react when you believe that thought.(Right) Or the mind when we look at, how the mind reacts, there're physical feelings, that's a reaction, there're images that happened, that's a reaction, and then addictions begin to happen, that is a reaction. And then it's cycle, that goes over and over and over, until the mind finds resolution. And then the addictions shift。

上瘾症，只不过是，只不过是，我们在不知道如何面对自己头脑中的念头时，所求助的临时方法而已。我们想要停止这些念头或者改变这些念头。换句话说，就是当你相信了那个念头，你是如何反应的。（是的）或者说，心智是如何反应的，有身体上的感受，这是一个反应；有头脑中的画面，这是一个反应；有上瘾症的发生，这是一个反应。然后，就形成了一种循环模式，一遍一遍重演着，一直到心念找到了出路。然后，上瘾症才转变了.

so and they don't replace. like, like if we just do it, and we still have the same mindset, but if we just, and in other words, by do it. I mean, like we just don't do the addiction, then it switches to something else,because we're still living out of the same ,um we're still believing the same thoughts.

所以，对心念的上瘾无法取代。就像是，如果我们只是做了某种瘾头的行为（果冻补充：即自认为会产生愉悦感的行为，酗酒、吸毒、性、暴饮暴食等），但是我们却依然抱有着同样的心念，，，，如果我们，换句话说，就像是我们只是去做某种瘾头的行为。我的意思是，就像是如果我们迫使自己不再去做这个瘾头的行为了，但是我们所执着的念头依然会让我们转变到另一样事物上去，去对另一件东西上瘾，因为我们依旧活在同样的念头模式中。

（果冻理解：这里凯蒂讲的是对行为本身所带来的“愉悦感”的上瘾，这种“愉悦感”是不真的，你想要让它成真，是与真相相反的，因为你永远无法将幻像变为真实，所以你会痛苦。

另一种是在上瘾行为，是由于心念想要回避的某个念头而强迫性切换思路，比如，一想到自己悲惨的遭遇就想喝酒等等。凯蒂在“我想找个男朋友”那段视频中有提到。

上瘾，要么是为了获得愉悦，要么是为了回避痛苦。趋利避害，人类的惯常习惯。）

JoB:

So, I'm going to give you sth that I can relate to, like accumulating money. I mean. I see people and me, you know, you have one appartment, and it's not good. So you get a bigger apartment,and then you know, you have a 20,000 square-foot in Hamptons, and then you have five cars,but that't not it,it's seven cars. And you know, it's just like,,,is that , would that be ...？

所以，我将会举一些相关的例子，类似积累财务。我的意思是，我看见人们和我自己，你知道。你有一个房子，但是它不够好，所以你换了一个大房子；然后呢，你在汉普顿买了一个2万平米的大别墅；然后呢，你买了5辆车，但是还不够，，你买了7辆车。。。你知道，那就像是，你说的是这个意思么?(“我想要那种愉悦感“ ，“获得A物会产生愉悦感”的念头还在，上瘾的对象可以是从房子，转换到车子等等)

Katie:

Yeah. It's , it's trying to find satisfaction.(But it looks good.) It looks good. And I'm not hearing a lot of satisfaction in the scenario you're giving me.(Right, there isn't.) So,um, when people do the work, question their thoughts, the thoughts that they're believing, their stressful thoughts, I really like to emphasize, then eventually they love what they have.

是的。那就像是它在寻找满足感。（但是，这样做看起来不错啊。）嗯，它看起来确实不错。只是我在你所描述的场景中没有听到很多的满足感。（是的，没有多少。）所以，嗯，当人们做功课的时候，质询它们的念头的时候，质询那些他们所深信的那些念头，我常常喜欢强调是那些有压力的念头，然后最终他们会爱上他们所拥有的东西（果冻备注：而不是那些没得到的东西）。

JoB:

Right. That's now , I get as a joy, cuz it's a matter of ..(You're satisfied  all the time.) It's walking into the apartment that we have, and you know, the shoes are on the floor, there're five kids. And you're like," Okay" you know, but it's , it's like ,and I don't know why,(It's loving what you have)I know, but I can't explain why one day to me that's like an experiece of joy, and one day it's annoying.

哦，我理解这就是喜悦，因为它是关于。。。（你所有的时间都感到满足）。当我走回家的时候，你知道，门口堆了很多鞋子，我家有5个孩子。。然后你会想，“很好”你知道，那就像是，我也不知道为什么。（那就是你爱你所拥有的一切）。我知道，但是我无法解释，面对门口的鞋子时，为什么有时候我体会到喜悦，而有时候我却感到烦躁。

Katie:

Well, because you're believing your thoughts about what happened before you came home, or believing your thoughts about what you want, and don't have. So ,that's a story of the future, projected as a past experience, or from a past experience.

嗯，那是因为你相信了你的想法。你相信了你头脑中回家之前发生了什么事情；或者相信你想要什么样子的，而事实却不是你想要的那个样子。所以，（我想要）那是一个关于未来的故事，投射为一段过去的经历，或者来自于一个过去的经历。

JoB:

So then I'll walk in the door. (And everything's your enemy.) Right.(You're looking for what's wrong.)Right.(The thing is) There's lots of ways to find wrong, you know,if you're looking.

所以，当我带着那个念头走进门的时候，（每件事都成了你的敌人）。对的。（你在找茬挑错）是的。（事情是。。）你知道，如果你想找茬的话，真的是有很多可以挑错的方法。

Katie:

Well. that's the mind's job.Its,its job is to , is to just like constantly look around and see, this is wrong, this is wrong.  this is wrong,and look to itself for the body, its identifying with,  this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. it's too old, it's too fat, it's too young, it's too short, it's too tall.it's too ,, it's unhealthy, it's a... you know, it's... so mind's job is to just" this is wrong,this is wrong,this is wrong."

是的，那就是心念的工作，它的工作就是持续不断向四周查看，然后找出，“这是错的，这是错的，这是错的”。然后，再查看它所认为是自己的那个身体，继续找“这是错的，这是错的，这是错的，身体太老了，太胖了，太年轻了，太矮了，太高了，太。。太不健康了。。。”。你知道，它的，，心念的工作就是挑错，“这是错的，这是错的，这是错的”。

So, um, when we begin to question those thoughts, then ,when mind begins to question itself, in other words, work itself. do the work with itself, then it's very exciting. even , and it's an unending event, it's a very creative event. And it begins to love.. you know, when the mind loves what it thinks, it loves it sees. Because everything it sees is its projected out of itself.

所以，嗯，当我们开始质询那些想法的时候，当心念开始向自己发问的时候，换句话说，做功课的时候，那会非常令人兴奋。那是一个无止境的事件，那是一件非常有创造性的事件。它开始去爱。你知道，当心念爱上它所想的，它就会爱上它所见的，因为所有它所见的事情，都是它自己的投射。

JoB:

Now, when the mind loves what it sees, do I.. and I think that I think I might have the answer  to this, but..(You're liking yourself.) Right. But I'm .. you know, I'm doing that or I can do that. Right?

现在，当念头爱上它所见的时候，我，我想，我想我大概知道答案了，但是（你开始喜欢你自己）是的。但是，你知道我正在这么做，或者我可以做到这一点，是吧？

Katie:

Yeah, you're in what um, people would refer to as a good mood. A good mood is when we're in a state where we're liking what we think.(Right.)  And when we're liking what we think, we like what we see.

是的，你拥有一个，嗯，人们所说的那种好心情。一个好心情，就是当我们处在我们喜欢自己的想法的那种状态。（对的）当我们喜欢上我们所想的事情，我们就会喜欢我们所见到的事情。

JoB:

So ,moody is just that? in other words, just that is being...it's liking your thoughts.

所以，坏心情就是那样么？换句话说，只是。。。喜欢你的想法而已。

Katie:

Yes.So depression is nothing more than someone believing their stressful thoughts. That's it.

是的，所以忧郁只不过是一个人相信了自己有压力的想法而已。就这么简单。

JoB:

" Babies aren't born to the world of illusion untill they attach words to things. when you're clear. It's great fun to observe that.I love being with my grandbabies, I love hearing what I teach them, that's a tree, that's a sky, I love you ,you're grandma's precious angel. you're the most beautiful baby in the world. All these lies,and I'm having a wonderful time telling them. if I'm creating problem for my grandchildren,they can question their stressful thoughts when they grow up. I am joy,I'm not going to censor any of it."

”婴儿之未孩，只在他们相信了对应着事物的那些词语时，他们才出生。当你清醒的时候，你会觉得这很有趣。我喜欢和我的孙儿们在一起。我喜欢我教导他们的那些话语，”那是一棵树，那是一片天。我爱你，你是祖母珍爱的小天使，你是世界上最美丽的宝宝。“所有这些谎言，我喜欢和他们说起这些话。如果我给我的孙儿们创造了问题，那么等他们长大之后可以用功课来质询他们的念头。我处于喜悦之中，我不打算审查其中任何一个念头。“

So I'm thinking , you know, you know it's okay with me if I go and tell, "you know, guys, you have the best dad."  I am the best dad, really? Are you sure?   I'm sure. and I don't have to, you know, that's freedom for me. do you know?

所以，我想，你知道，你知道这点对我很适合，如果我去和孩子们说，”你们知道么？小家伙们，你们 拥有最棒的爸爸。” 我是最棒的爸爸么？我确定么？是的，我确定。我没必要去质询这个念头，，，你知道，那是我的自由，你明白么？

Katie:

Well, you believe it also, it's just spill out of you ,and and from what I can see, it's , you know, you are(the best dad), you know, from head to toe. and so in love with your children.and so fair. and so wonderful. you can stay in and it'll , and it will transfer through to them. you know. It's true.(right) in all of your opnion.(Right)And I feel that way about me too. You know, when I look at my grandchildren, like, " oh, my goodness." And you know, all of us grandparents and parents, you know,  we just ,we look at our children, and the children in our lives, and we're just , we're in love, and anything we can say about that just feels true.

是的，你也深信着它。它只是从你的嘴里蹦出来而已。就我的观察来看，你是，要知道，你就是最棒的爸爸。要知道，从头到脚都是，如此爱着你的孩子们，如此公平，如此神奇。你可以站在那个位置上，深信着，它将会从你这里传递给你的孩子们。要知道，你真心认为它是真的。（对的）。我对我自己也是这么认为的。要知道，当我看着我的孩子们，那就像是”哦，天。“ 那些我生命中的孩子们，我们是如此深爱着，我所说的每一句话感觉起来都如此真实。

So, that's why I say those thoughts ,and why would we question them? Let's keep them.It's when we say them ,and they're not true us.(Right) It doesn't transfer. To work with the stressful thoughts, is a way to experience honestly and genuinely all the affection and love that we feel and share with each other. When we're believing the stressful thoughts, it's um, you know, what we believing in those moments surfaces , and it frightens our children and it frightens us. And there's the bad mood. (Right)

所以，那也是为什么我说那些美好的念头，为什么我们要质询它们呢？让我们保留着它们吧。我们所质询的是那些当我们说出口的时候，那些对我们自己觉得不真实的想法。（对的）它不具有爱的传递能力。去质询有压力的念头，是一条诚实与正直地全然体验爱与感恩的道路，我们感受着，并与每个人分享着。当我们相信那些有压力的念头时，那就像是，嗯，要知道，我们相信那些浮起来的念头，它们吓坏了我们的孩子，也吓坏了我们自己。然后我们处于一个糟糕的心情中。（是的）

Because you know, anything, any danger for children doesn‘t have to be expressed through fear and anger, and anger is a mask for fear. It does. They don't have t be taught that way, of couse ,they do have to be taught that way, as long as the parent believes their stressful thoughts.(mm-hm)But it can be communicated so differently when the parent is , is sane.

因为你知道，任何事情，任何一件对孩子来说是危险的事情，都没有必要透过恐惧和愤怒来表述它，而愤怒只是恐惧的面具而已。我们没必要以那样的方式来教导孩子。当然，只要父母还深信着他们的有压力的念头，他们将不得不那样教导孩子。（嗯）但是，当父母是清醒的时候，是可以采用一种完全不同的方式来与孩子们交流的。

果冻最新补充：

“The differencce between pleasure and joy? Ohh.. the distance is from here to the moon! From here to another galaxy! Pleasure is an attempt to fill yourself. Joy is what you are." __摘自Byron Katie《Question Your Thinking, Change the World》

"感官的愉悦与内心的喜悦，两者的区别？哦，那简直天差地别。愉悦感是要试图去填满你自己，而喜悦是你本自具足。”

果冻补充：凯蒂曾经 说过，Joy is happy for no reason. for no reason to reason.(快乐是你无理由的快乐，也没有需要理由的理由。)