奥普拉（Oprah）对凯蒂（Katie）的专访1（中英版-果冻） ...

starinheart

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作者：starinheart（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/note/664138845/

果冻叨叨：

最开始，看《一念之转》的时候，就看过这个奥普拉对凯蒂的访谈。当时只是觉得，哇塞，凯蒂真牛。而除此之外，就没有更多的领悟了。时隔一年多，再翻山越岭看过很多凯蒂的视频之后，再回头看奥普拉的这段专访，真的发现里面字字珠玑。一个好的采访者，就如同挖矿人一样，通过尖锐的问题挖掘出智者的智慧之光。果冻结合自己生活中的事件、困惑，每次看这段专访，都能找到内心迷茫的答案。所以，老公总是说，你怎么老看老看，呵呵。其实每看一遍，收获得都是不同的点位。

因为英文是原汁原味的，汉字转译或多或少总会丢失一部分原意。所以我非常愿意将英文对话也记录下来与大家分享。要知道，这是凯蒂思想的第一手转换，如果想要更加深入地学习凯蒂的the work，真的建议大家好好学习英文。你会觉得几乎她说的每一个词都能戳中心窝的感觉。

这是一个完整版的英文-中文对话，时间大约是1小时左右。太长了，分3部分翻译完吧，呵呵。：）感谢Youtube的英文字幕，95%的准确率，省去了我很多猜测字眼的时间，呵呵。

Oprah's Soul Series-  Talk To Byron Katie.

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Oprah: Well. I'm really really excited  today to meet a woman Byron Katie now. I've heard l lot about her in the spirtual circles 。A friend of mine had told me about one of her books years ago, and most recently another friend called me up and said," have you heard of the work? Byron Katie ,the work?" , "Yeah, I keep hearing about this woman Byron katie." So I got her book " loving what is",started reading it and loved it so much because it brought me to another level of thinking about resisting what is,  and so this whole idea of being able to accept the moment ,for what the moment has to offer  and not resisting it, is something I want to talk to her about. And also, but if you don't resist,you just walk around all time like " hu hu hu hu" ,not resisting? we're gonna find out today with Byron Katie.

奥普拉：大家好。我今天非常非常兴奋能够见到这个叫做拜伦.凯蒂的女人。我在灵修圈子一直都在听说这个女人。几年前我的一个朋友就曾经和我谈起过凯蒂写的一本书，而最近另一个朋友打电话又问我说：“嘿，你听过功课么？拜伦.凯蒂，功课？” “哦，是的，我一直都听人提到她。”所以，我就买了一本凯蒂的书《一念之转》并开始阅读，我非常喜欢这本书。因为它将我带向一个更高层次的思考，即关于对抗现实的一些思考。所以，关于整本书的核心理念就是接受当下。即，对于当下给与你的，你都不要抗拒它。而这正是我想要和凯蒂探讨的问题。因为，如果你不抗拒的话，是不是就意味只是像个疯子一样在街头晃荡，满口疯言疯语，什么都不抗拒呢？今天，我们要和拜伦凯蒂好好地聊一聊这个话题。

Opera：...My guest today, Byron Katie, author of a thousand names of for joy -living in harmony with the way things are”and she's the founder of the work , a process of inquiry from which she offers anybody who can learn to identify and question the thoughts that caused their suffering. Katie, everybody calls you right now. (Katie, yes)

I just want say a few things about. Cause everyone who is listening to this series, no doubt you understand that we're also doing online with Eckhart Tolle, our class for a new earth and Eckhart Tolle whom you've undoubtedly heard me talk about over the past several months, says of "Katie's work that it is a great blessing for our planet", is how he describes it. "it acts like a razor sharp sword that cuts through illusions and enables you to know for yourself, the timeless essence of your being." He goes on to call your book "loving what is " the key to know your natural state, which is joy,peace and love. (Katie, yes) That's pretty good compliment coming up.

奥普拉：我今天的客人，拜伦.凯蒂，是《无尽的喜悦 — 与生活和谐共处》的作者。她是功课的创始人，所谓的功课，是一个质询的过程。拜伦凯蒂将它提供给所有那些学会辨别让自己痛苦的念头，并且对自己的念头提出质询的人。现在，大家都称呼她为凯蒂。（凯蒂：是的。）

另外，我还想多说一点。因为每一个看过我们这个系列节目的人，毫无疑问都知道我们也与埃克哈特.托利进行在线课堂，学习他的《新世纪的觉醒》那本书。毫无疑问，我们过去几个月里一直都在提起凯蒂。埃克哈特说，“凯蒂的功课，是我们这个星球的福音”，他这样描述到，“它像一把利刃一样划破了幻境，从而让你能够了解自己，即了解你永恒的本质。”埃克哈特继续说“《一念之转》这本书是开启你真实本性的钥匙，找到你内在的喜悦、平静和爱。”（凯蒂：是的）哇，埃克哈特的这些话真是极高的称赞了。

Katie：Yes. He's a dear friend.( oprah, Yeah) He's a dear friend for everyone.

凯蒂：是的。他是一个亲密的朋友。（奥普拉：是的）他是每一个人的亲密的朋友。

Oprah: You know ，what I found your work takes the message that Eckhart speaks of in a new earth to the next level. It's about putting it in process(Katie, Yeah) in daily basis.

奥普拉：你知道么，我发现你的功课将埃克哈特所讲的新世纪的觉醒提升到了一个更高的层次。功课是新世纪的觉醒在日常生活层面的具体执行。（凯蒂：是的）

Katie：Yeah. It's like Eckhart is what and the work is how. And we've had these masters  throughout  the centuries and centuries and , but how do we do it? You know , It‘s ...well..the work is how.

凯蒂：是的。就像是说，埃克哈特所讲的是“是什么”，功课所讲的是“怎么做”。我们几个世纪以来一直拥有很多很多的灵魂导师，但是我们该怎么做呢？你知道，嗯，功课讲的就是怎么去做。

Oprah: Paint a picture for us how old were you? What was going on in your life?

奥普拉：对我们讲讲你自己吧。你多大年纪了？你过去到底发生了什么事儿？

Katie： I was 43 when this experience happened to me. And I've been suffering just deep deep deep depression suicidal ,and  even agoraphobic , I couldn't leave my bedroom, often for days and weeks other than just go to the toilet, and my hair would stick to me. It was a horrible way to live. I was weighted over 200 pounds and I was desperate and later I found that simply it was the effect of believing my thinking , the thoughts that that we are all thinking.（Oprah：All the time）mm-hmm（Oprah：that run our lives）"My children don't respect me." " They should mind me" and it was that "The world doesn't understand" and "People really don't understand my suffering, my pain". And and you know, victims are violent people I'd come to see.（Oprah: Really） And I was such a victim,and  therefore violent, full of  this hatred turned （Oprah: Rage）rage。

凯蒂：那件事情发生时，我43岁。我持续地陷入深深的、深深的忧郁症之中，接近于自杀的边缘，甚至患上了荒野恐惧症。我常常连续几天或者几个礼拜都不敢离开我的卧室，只有上厕所的时候才出去一下，我的头发黏糊糊地贴在脸上。哦，那是一种很可怕的生活方式。我体重高达200磅（约为180斤）。我极度绝望。后来，我发现这一切遭遇，都只不过是因为简单地相信了自己的念头而已，相信了我们每个人都会想的那些念头而已。（奥普拉：一刻不停的念头）。嗯，是的。（奥普拉：控制了我们的生活）。例如，“我的孩子不尊重我”，“他们应该在乎我”，“全世界都不理解我”，“人们根本不理解我的痛苦、我的伤痛”等等。你知道，我后来发现受害者是残暴的。（奥普拉：是这样的）。我是如此深陷的受害者，所以我变得非常残暴，浑身充满了仇恨，而仇恨转变为愤怒。

Oprah: Right，so not even thinking yourself worthy , Katie to sleep in a bed. You were sleeping on the floor and tell us what happened.

奥普拉：是的，所以你甚至都觉得自己不配，凯蒂，你觉得自己不配睡在床上。你当时睡在地板上是么? 给我们讲讲当时发生了什么？

Katie：Well， actually as I lay asleep on the floor . One morning, actually a cockroach crawled over my foot and I open my eyes and  in place of all that darkness was a joy that I just simply can't described. But the thing that is really important  that I realized is that when I believed my thoughts I suffered, but when I question my thoughts I don't suffer, and I've come to see that this is true for every human being.

凯蒂：好吧，事实上我确实是躺在地板上睡觉的。一天早上，实际上有一只蟑螂爬过我的脚背，我睁开眼睛，发现所有的黑暗全都转变为喜悦，那是一种我难以言传的喜悦。但是在那一刻，我真正重要的发现是：当我相信我的念头时，我会痛苦；但是当我质询我的念头时，我不再痛苦。而且，我后来发现这一点对每个人都是一样的。

Oprah: Tell us were you a spiritual person before? （Katie：No）I mean, doing all of this depression and horrible times,was there a God that you believed in of a God that you felt badly that you didn't believe in?

奥普拉：告诉我们你之前是个灵修人士么？（凯蒂：不是）我的意思是，在你经历所有这些忧郁症与可怕的生活历程的过程中，你相信有上帝么? 还是你感觉糟透了，根本不相信有上帝存在呢？

Katie: Yeah, there was a God I cursed and I really blamed God for my condition , also along with everyone and everything else. And I just came to see differently. I had no teacher, I didn't have a religion. Nothing.

凯蒂：是的。我会拿上帝来诅咒。除了诅咒世界上的所有人和所有事，我也真的诅咒上帝为什么让我陷入这种境地。现在我只是看世界的角度不同了。我没有老师，也没有宗教信仰。我不是那种追求心灵成长的人。

Oprah: Well, is it kind of like I think Eckhart several weeks ago when we were doing our a new earth series and also in his book of power now describes the moment where he says I felt I cannot live I'm so miserable, I cannot live with myself any longer,(Katie: Yeah) and then I question who is the I and who is the myself, are there two of us? Is that what you're describing?

奥普拉：好吧。你的这种经历让我想到埃克哈特。几个星期之前，我和他一直在做一个关于“新世纪的觉醒”的系列专访，同时他的著作《当下的力量》中也描写过那样的一个时刻，他说“我觉得我活不下去了，我是如此地可悲，我再受不了这样的我自己了。”（凯蒂：是的）埃克哈特说，“于是，我问自己，到底谁是我，谁是被受不了的我自己呢？难道有两个我么？” 我想问的是，这与你刚才描述的情况是一回事么？

Katie: Well, it was, it was , it's like that in hindsight. (Oprah: in hindsight) Yeah.(Oprah: It is. )Yeah..(Oprah:Alright. )But, you know there's ..I've  come to see that there's ,there's ,you know, one mind, as people say. And I've really come to realize that. And I've come to see also in that one mind ,that there are no new stressful thoughts. So, if we , if we all or just one,you know ,it's always speaking to myself,(Oprah: yes) just questioned those stressful thoughts, it frees the mind up.(Oprah： So when we ,when we question our thoughts we don't suffer, when we believe our thoughts we do) The stressful ones.(Oprah：the stressful ones)Because the ones like "I really care about you", "Isn't this a wonderful world","I love seeing you", all these thoughts "I love my children", those thoughts are working for us. And who cares if they are true or not, they're working for us. If you are in a wonderful dream, do you want someone to wake you up? No.(Oprah: No.)  But if you are in a nightmare, don't you want someone to wake you up? Well, that's what this work is for, that's what the the work is for.

凯蒂：嗯。事后看来，那种经历是有点相像。（奥普拉：事后看？）是的。（奥普拉：这样啊）是的。（奥普拉：好吧）但是，你知道么？我渐渐发现，其实只有一个心（实相，万物合一），就像人们所说，其实只有一个心。而在这个唯一的心中，根本没有什么新鲜的让人感到压力的念头。（果冻补充：拜伦凯蒂常说的一句话，there're all recycled。它们都是回收再利用的旧念头，反复被利用，产生了所谓的轮回吧。）

所以，如果我们都能够，或者只要一个人能够... 你知道，我在说一个人的时候总是在说我自己（奥普拉：是的），..只要一个人能够质询那些充满压力的念头，它就能让这个心得到自由。（奥普拉：所以当我们质询我们的念头时，我们不再痛苦；当我们相信我们的念头时，我们痛苦）。要质询那些让你感到压力的念头。（奥普拉：感到压力的念头？）。因为，对于那些例如“我真的关心你”，“这难道不是个美好的世界么？”，“我喜欢见到你”，“我爱我的孩子”等等，这些念头对我们是有用的，谁在乎它是真的假的呢，它对我们有用就够了。比如，当你正在一个甜美的梦境中时，你想要让别人把你唤醒么？不！（奥普拉：不）。但是，如果你正陷入一个噩梦中时，难道你不想让别人把你叫醒么？好吧，那就是功课的作用，那就是功课的意义所在。

Oprah: That was the cockroach moment, um Katie , was that you what you call waking up to reality?

奥普拉：你说的那个蟑螂爬过的时刻，嗯，凯蒂，是你所说的醒在现实中的那个时刻么？

Katie:Yes.

凯蒂：是的。

Oprah:Yeah, okay. I'm talking to Byron Katie, author of loving what is, let's go back。 So you have a reality experience with the cockroach, you're there lying on the floor.Then what happens?

奥普拉：好的。我正在和拜伦凯蒂进行专访，她是一念之转的作者。让我们再回来看看。所以，你已经有了关于真相的体会，关于那个蟑螂，你躺在地板的那个时刻的体会。那么，接下来发生了什么？

Katie: The mind hit. The mind hit and in that moment  I saw that what I was believing, what I was being hit was not true for me, because I had just had the experience that it wasn't （true）（Oprah： uh huh）and then in that moment the world instantly happened. There were walls and ceilings and sky and floor and bed...(Oprah: you saw everything differently )  everything differently.

凯蒂：念头开始攻击。我注意到念头开始攻击，我在那个时刻注意到，我曾经所相信的念头，那个正在攻击的我的念头，对我而言不再是真的了。因为我刚刚经历过，体会到它不是真的。（奥普拉：啊哈）。然后，在念头攻击我的那一时刻，整个世界即刻出现了，墙壁、天棚、天空、地板、床。。。（奥普拉：你看到了一个完全不同的世界），是的，一个完全不同的世界。

Oprah:What is it that you absolutely realized, Katie? in that wakening moment on that floor? What is it that you absolutely realize that you could clarify for our listeners?

奥普拉：凯蒂，你到底发现了什么？在那个躺在地板上觉醒的时刻？你到底清楚地觉知到了什么，什么是你能够整理清楚的，并且可以传达给听众的呢？

starinheart

Katie: I am whatever I believe me to be. And then when you question that, Oprah, it doesn't  leave much. If it leaves anything at all for me, it's gratitude and how can I help. It's gratitude and service.

凯蒂：我是我所相信的。所以，那你质询那个身份的时候，奥普拉，你会发现“我”所剩无几。如果说对于我而言，还有残余的身份的话，那就是感恩、以及我能够做哪些帮助。我所残余的是感恩与服务。

Oprah：Okay. But if you are whatever you believe yourself to be, then why could you be also the depressed person，the person who isn't good enough, the person who's never made it, the person who's not loved by her children, the person who's not been received...?

奥普拉：好吧。但是，如果你是你所相信的；那么为什么你还要成为那个沮丧的人，那个不够好的人，那个从没成功的人，那个不被孩子喜欢的人，那个不被接纳的人呢。。。？

Katie: Because I can't believe the thoughts that are happening，they tell me that( Oprah: mm-hmm) If someone said ,"Katie, you're worthless."( Oprah: mm-hmm) You know, I, I realize how painful it is to believe that about someone, yourself or anyone. So if someone says,"Katie, I don't care about you." I just think I hope they do better , I know how painful that is ,to see another human being as less than you see yourself. （Oprah:Okay） And if someone says,"Katie, I love you." I think ,"Oh, my goodness, isn't  that person doing well? They love, they love, and that's the highest standard for a balanced mind.

凯蒂：因为我不相信这些出现的念头而已，是它们告诉的我这些想法。（奥普拉：嗯） 如果有人说：“凯蒂，你一文不值。”（奥普拉：嗯）。你知道，我明白相信这样一个念头有多么痛苦，无论这个念头是针对你自己还是其他任何一个人。所以，如果有人对我说：“凯蒂，我不在乎你。”我只会想，我希望他们能做得更好一些，我知道相信那样一个念头有多痛苦，相信另一个人不如你是多么痛苦。（果冻补充：相信自己不如其他任何一个人也同样痛苦。凯蒂在这里讲的是无二无别。）所以，如果有人对我说：“凯蒂，我爱你。”我会想，“哦，天啊，他做的简直太好了。他会爱，他会爱。爱是一颗平衡的心所具有的最高标准。”

Oprah: Did you question your sanity at all? Did you think " Woo.."

奥普拉：你有没有质疑过自己是不是疯了？你有没有想过 “哇喔..."

Katie: My family did. But I knew, I knew what insanity was, and I knew I frientened people with this awakening , and so I've.. I continued to learn balance.

凯蒂：我的家人质疑过，质疑我是不是疯了。但是我了解，我了解不清醒或者说疯了是个什么状态。我也知道因为这个觉醒，我让很多人感到害怕。所以，我。。我一直在学习如何去平衡。

Oprah： mm-hmm，So you immediately started counseling people then? Couse Who knew?Because you've been this depressed(Katie: yeah) agoraphobic all these time. So why is anybody now coming to your door?

奥普拉：嗯，所以你马上就开始为人们提供咨询服务了么？因为，谁知道你呢？因为你这么长的时间都陷于一个绝望的荒野恐惧症中。所以为什么现在会有人来找你呢？

Katie：Well. It was such a radical experience that was such a change , that even my children didn't recognize me. and, So the word-of-mouth happened, and I didn't know what it was. So people called and they said can you help me, and I said you know I don't even know what this is, but what I can tell you is ,you know,whatever it is ,it's yours. And so actually people would come live with me. I thought it maybe was the air ,the food.. You know ,I had no idea what it was.I had to find references as I went along , and people gave me my references.

凯蒂：嗯。这是如此彻底地转变经历，以至于我的孩子们都认不出我来了。所以口碑慢慢传开，我也不知道是因为什么原因。所以，人们给我打电话问，“你能帮助我么？”我回答说，“你知道，我甚至都不知道这是怎么回事。但是我可以告诉你，你知道，不管它是什么，我都愿意给你。”所以，实际上人们就开始来到我家和我生活在一起。我曾经以为也许是空气、食物的原因。。。你知道，我当时根本不知道这是怎么回事。我在为别人服务的同时，不得不去找其他的参考信息。同时人们也会给我提供一些参考信息。

Oprah: The work is called inquiry, you call it the inquiry.(Katie: mm-hmm) When you were down there lying with the cockroach, did the four questions come to you then?

奥普拉： 功课被称为质询，你称呼它为质询。（凯蒂：嗯）当你躺在地板上，即那个蟑螂爬过的时刻，四个问题是在那时候来到你面前的么？

Katie: It was automatic. I saw that nothing was true, and I saw the mind hit, and I saw the mind believed it. (Opera: Okay) and So that...

凯蒂：那是自动发生的。我看见什么都不是真的，然后我看见念头的攻击，然后我看见头脑相信了念头。（奥普拉：好的）所以。。

Oprah: I say that again slowly. You saw that nothing was true?

奥普拉：我慢慢地重复一遍你刚才所说的话啊。你看到一切都不是真的。

Katie: Yes, It's like nothing was true.

凯蒂：是的，一切都不是真的。

Oprah: Nothing was true?

奥普拉（难以置信地）：一切都不是真的？

Katie:Nothing, no identification.Then the mind hit.(Oprah: Yeah) and I saw the mind wasn't true, and I saw that people believed their thoughts.(Oprah:mm-hmm). But it simply wasn't true for me.That doesn't mean that it's not true for them. So the first four..the work， four questions and turnaround. So the first question。You believing, for example.

凯蒂：一切都不是真的，没有身份。然后，念头开始攻击（奥普拉：是的），我看见念头不是真的，然后我看见人们相信了他们的念头。（奥普拉：嗯）。但是，简单来说它只是对我不是真实的。这并不意味着念头对于他们不是真实的。所以，功课，即四个问题与一个反转。所以，第一个问题，你相信，例如，嗯。。

Oprah：Let me turn in my book to the questions.(Katie: Okay) Go ahead.

奥普拉：我要到书中找找这些问题。（凯蒂：好的）。你继续。

Katie: The first question is, "Is it true?" For example, (Oprah: uh-huh) If I had the thought ,"He doesn't care about me." (Oprah: right) The first question is "is it true?" the second queation,"can I absolutely know that it's true he doesn't care about me." the third question,"how do you react when you believe the thought he doesn't care about me." Well, the whole world is born out of that , you know, maybe I become angry or maybe I become sad.

凯蒂：第一个问题，“这是真的么？”（奥普拉：啊哈）如果我有一个念头，“他不关心我”（奥普拉：对）第一个问题就是，“这是真的么？”第二个问题，“我能百分百确定他不关心我么?” 第三个问题，“当你相信他不关心我的这个念头时，你会如何反应呢？”然后，整个世界就从那个念头中诞生出来了，你知道，或许我会变得气愤，或许我会变得悲伤。

Oprah: Okay,tell us how this worked with you first. You，you are , there're feeling， depressed, miserable ,distraught,all those things, that many people have felt. (Katie: Yes) And the question comes,"Is it true?" Well, I would think the answer would be ,for ,you know, many people who have felt this for themselves,and almost anyone listening , as "Yeah, I am a miserable。 I'm pretty miserable.

奥普拉：好的。先和我们讲讲你是怎么做功课的。你，嗯，你感到沮丧、悲惨、心烦、所有这些，很多人都会有这样的感受。（凯蒂：是的）。然后问题来了，“这是真的么？” 好吧，我会认为答案是，你知道，很多有这样感受的人，或者说几乎每个听到这个问题的人，都可能会回答说，“是啊，我就是惨啊，我就是很惨啊。”

Katie： And that's an honest answer. and that's all , that's all required is the willingness to answer the questions. That's all .(Oprah: Okay). So the answer would be yes, and I say " Can you absolutely know that it' true that you're worthless?" And they might answer yes again.Because the mind immediately is giving them all the proof (Oprah: Right),all the images(Oprah: All right). That‘s how the mind works.

凯蒂：嗯，那是个诚实的回答。这就够了，做功课所需要的只是一个愿意去回答问题的心而已。那就是全部要求。（奥普拉：好吧）。所以，答案或许是，“是的，那是真的。”  然后我会接着问，“你能百分百确定你真的一无是处么？” 而他们或许依旧会回答，“是的，我确定。” 因为他们的头脑会立即提供给他们所有的证据，（奥普拉：是的），一系列佐证你观点的图像都立马出现在头脑中。（奥普拉：是的）。那就是头脑的运作方式。

Oprah: Right, so yes I know I'm worthless

奥普拉（假装在回答问题）：是的，我知道我自己一无是处。

Katie：Yes.

凯蒂： 是的。

Oprah: So far, I'm doing so good.

奥普拉：目前来看，我做的不错。

starinheart

Katie：Yeah，so far. So, the third question ," how do you react when you believe the thought that you are worthless.(Oprah: Oh.) And what happens.(Oprah: It makes me feel even more worthless.) Yes, that your stomach could rotate ,(Oprah: Yes.), you know, tears could happen, depression happens,(Oprah: Yes.),and we become unkind and we wonder what is the matter with us. You know ,I don't want to talk that way to people, I don‘t want to hurt people and we're striking out。And then the mind how do we react when we think that thought ? The mind attacks and then it comes back to attacks you,and guilt happens. (Oprah: Correct.), And so it is this swirls,and how do I react when I believed the thought? I compulsively overate,I  drank, I smoke,and all these addictions kicked in,all. You know, how do we  react when we believe these stressful thoughts.

凯蒂：是的，目前来看是如此。所以，第三个问题是，“当你相信 ‘你是一无是处的’ 这个念头时候，你有何感受与反应？”（奥普拉：哦），“发生了什么？”（奥普拉：那让我感觉自己更一无是处了），是的，你的胃开始翻腾，（奥普拉：是的），你知道，眼泪会流下来，会感到失望的情绪，（奥普拉：是的），我们开始变得很不友善，并且我们还奇怪自己到底是怎么回事。你知道，你可能会想，“我并不想那样和别人说话，我并不想伤害别人”，于是我们奋力挣扎。所以，当我们相信那个念头的时候，我有何感受与反应呢？我会发现念头开始让我攻击别人，然后反过来再攻击我自己，然后会觉得内疚。（奥普拉：对的）。所以，这是一个循环。当我相信那个念头时，我有何感受与行为呢？我强迫自己暴饮暴食、醉酒、吸烟，所有这些瘾头都趁虚而入了。你知道，这个时候，当我相信这个念头的时候，我们就是这样地感受与反应的。
Katie：So then the fourth question, " Who would you be without that thought“ And then just to sit and get still and don't change anything, and I invite all the listeners to ,to  just close their eyes and look at their life just the way they live it, at the market ,at home, doing the dishes, whatever it is, going to work, walking , to look back at their life only drop the thought."Who would you be without your story?" Just drop the thought and look at your life. And you see like..(Oprah: Yes , because in many , in almost every situation,if not every situation,It's not what is happening, It's what we tell ourselves, or the thoughts we have about what's happening,that make it whatever it is) Yes.(Oprah: That's right.) And we can have all kinds of thoughts about it. It's do we believe them or not.(Oprah:  Right.) That's the key. .(Oprah:  Yeah,right.) So then I invite people after those four questions。。。

凯蒂：接下来是第四个问题，“没有这个念头，你是谁?" ，你只是坐在那里，静静地感受，不需要改变任何事物。我邀请所有的听众，只是闭上眼睛，看看他们自己生活本身的样子，或许是在超市、在家里、在洗碗、不管是什么场景，或者是去上班、正在散步等等。只是不带着这个念头去回看一下自己的生活，体会一下“没有这个念头，你是谁？”。只是暂时放下这个念头，去看看你的生活。然后你会看见。。（奥普拉：是的，因为在很多情况下，几乎在每一个情况下，重要的不是正在发生的什么，而是我们告诉了自己发生了什么，或者是我们对于所发生的事情做出的判断，才使事情呈现为我们所看到的样子。）是的。（奥普拉：嗯。）关于这件事，我们会有各种各样的想法。但是关键在于我们是否相信这些想法，（奥普拉：对的），这才是关键。（奥普拉：是的，很对）。接下来，我邀请人们在这四个问题之后。。。

Oprah: And I read from the page one,um, a few basic principles, and um in loving what is, is you say noticing when your thought argues with reality, the only time ,I was underlined, the only time we suffer is when we believe a thought that argues with what is, when the mind is perfect clear,what is is what we want. And I wrote down," Okay, what if someone is being really really  inappropriate? "You are in a situation where something is happening and you don't want it to happen,you even go to the place where it's happening I don't want it to happen. I'm not gonna resist it, I'm going to accept what is. But it still isn't necessarily what you want?

奥普拉：我在你的《一念之转》中的“一些基本原则”一章中读到，在第1页。你说，要注意你的想法正在与事实争辩。“我们唯一会感到痛苦的时刻”，你看我都在这里划了线（奥普拉举起书给凯蒂看），你说，“我们唯一感到痛苦的时刻，就是当我们相信了一个与事实抗争的念头。当头脑足够清醒的时候，事实是什么，就正是我想要的什么。”我在这段话下面备注说，“好吧，但是如果有人真的真的觉得不对劲儿呢？” 比如，当你处于一个情况下，发生了某件事，但是你并不想让它发生？或者你去了一个地方，那里有件事你并不想让它发生？虽然我可以劝自己说，“我不要对抗事实，我要接受这个事实”，但是它依旧并不是你想要的事实啊。

Katie: I would say ,change it..(Oprah: Change it.) with all of your power  change it..(Oprah: Okay.) right here right now, because that's the only opportunity you have.(Oprah: Okay.),right here right now. So you change it. And if that doesn't work, then open your mind  and see a higher way.(Oprah: Okay.). Because it's got to be.

凯蒂：我会说，去改变它吧，（奥普拉：哦，去改变。），用尽你所有的力量去改变它，（奥普拉：好的），就在此时此地，因为这是你唯一能够改变它的机会,（奥普拉：好的)，就在此时此地。所以，你就尽量去改变它好了。但是如果你的努力不起作用，事情并没有改变的话，那么你就开放心胸，从更高的维度去看待它。（奥普拉：好的）。因为事情就需要这样运行（果冻补充：不接受也得接受，呵呵）。

Oprah: You also say I'm a lover of what is, not because I'm a spiritual person,but because it hurts when I argue with reality.(Katie: Yes.) But I wonder if we ,if we take this approach,you say, when we stop opposing reality, action becomes simple，fluid, and fearless. (Katie: Yeah.) I'm thinking though, if we don't oppose reality, when reality is something that we are oppose to，we don't oppose it. How do you ever get anything done?

奥普拉：你在书中也说，“我是事实的爱人，并不是因为我是个灵修人士，而是因为每当我与事实抗辩的时候，我总是受伤。” （凯蒂：是的。）但是，我很好奇，如果我们，如果我们也采取你这个方法，就像你说的那样，停止与事实抗辩，行动就会变得简单、流畅和无畏。（凯蒂：是的。）虽然你这么说，但是我想如果我们不与事实抗辩的话，如果事实就是我要抗辩的，而我们却不去抗辩的时候。。那么你还怎么做事儿呢？

Katie: Reality is the story of the past. (Oprah:Okay, how so?) And we can change the past now. Okay, so reality is so，so um, the discussion we've just had, right now, is the past. (Oprah:It's over, gone.) And it's reality.(Oprah:Yeah.) So if something happened between us that we want it to shift, we have the power to shift it now.(Oprah:Right,now). Yes. And I've come to see that defense is the first act of war. So if I , if I shift， if I attempt to shift things..(Oprah: Denfense is the first active of war. So the moment you start to defend , you put yourself in the position of creating war.) And who did it？ I did,the moment I defended. So we can discuss any shift or I can discuss any shift , like I can give you my experience, I can give you my education, my educated view，if one happens to be there on the topic. And that's all I've got. (Oprah:mm- hum) That's what I've got, my wisdom, my experience.

凯蒂：事实只是过去了的一个故事。（奥普拉：哦，这怎么可能？）我们可以站在现在这个时间点来改变过去。好吧，所以说，事实只是，嗯，比如我们刚刚的那个谈话，是已经过去了的。（奥普拉：嗯，对话已经结束了，没了。）所以，它是个事实。（奥普拉：是的）。所以如果你我之间刚才发生了什么事情，是我们想要去转化的话，（果冻补充：注意这里凯蒂用的词语是shift，而不是change。注意品味两者的区别。shift是指当下的转化，强调自己的内在；change是指对事实的改变，强调外在的现实。）我们只在当下才拥有转化的力量。（奥普拉：现在。）是的。我还发现，防卫是战争的第一步。所以，如果我，如果我想要去转化一些事情。。。（奥普拉：防卫是战争的第一步。所以当你开始防卫的那一刻，你就将自己置于发动战争的那个位置了。）所以说，是谁发起了战争呢？是我，是我在防卫的那一刻所发起的。所以，我们可以讨论任何形式的转化，或者说我可以讨论任何形式的转化。比如，我可以给你我的经历，我可以给你我的教育，我的教育观点，如果那刚好也是这次交流的话题之一的话。这就是我当下所能做到的全部。（奥普拉：嗯。。）。那就是当下我所能拥有的全部，我的智慧，我的经验。

Oprah: Um,is that to say then nothing is worthy of dense? Lots of things that worthy defending.

奥普拉：嗯，那是不是说，没有任何一件事值得防卫么？但是，有很多事情都值得我们去防卫啊。

Katie: Defense is war.and I say all war belongs on paper.That's where it belongs. So we can look at it and question those thoughts we're believing.

凯蒂：防卫就是战争。我认为所有的战争都属于纸面，那才是战争所属的地方。所以我们可以在纸面上看着那些我们所相信的念头，并深入质询它们。

Oprah：Okay, I got it. I just got the shift, because I was thinking when you said that. I'm working on this whole program to really shift the way our country looks at child abuse, and I was thinking I'm defending the children ,I'm defending the children, and even as you said that. I realize I'm really not trying to defend the children, I'm trying to protect them, which is different .

奥普拉：好的，我明白了。我刚刚才明白转化的意思。因为我刚才一直在想你说的那些话。最近我一直在推进一整个项目，主题是要真正转变我们国家更加重视儿童欺凌的问题。我一直以为自己是要防卫孩子们不再被伤害，我一直是在防卫孩子们不再被伤害，即便是你刚才讲那段话的时候，我也是这么想的。现在我意识到，我其实不是努力去防卫孩子们不再被伤害（果冻补充：对抗欺凌儿童的人），我其实是一直努力要去保护孩子们（果冻补充：保护儿童），这两者是有区别的。

Katie: Yes, and you're educating us,(Oprah: shift,shift). And you're educating them.

凯蒂：是的，你通过自己对孩子们的爱与行动教育了我们（果冻补充：自己的一方）。（奥普拉：转化，转化）。你也通过自己对孩子们的爱与行动教育了他们（果冻补充：敌对的一方）。

（果冻补充: 这是一段非常深刻的对话，根据个人理解，我刻意丰富了英文的语意。）

Oprah：And that if I try to defend them that I will end up being the  a part of the war,(Katie: of the problem), of the problem.(Katie: Yes).Yeah, I can't have a war against anything.(Katie:Yes) Yeah.

奥普拉：所以如果我努力地想要去防卫他们，那么最终我会不自觉地让自己成为了战争的一部分，（凯蒂：成为问题的一部分），成为问题的一部分，（凯蒂：是的）。哦，我不能与任何事物开战。（凯蒂：是的）哦。

Katie: That's how wars begin.(Oprah: Yeah, Okay). You know, I'm going to defend my point of view. You got it.

凯蒂：这就是人类为什么会发动战争的原因。（奥普拉：是的）。你知道，战争双方只是相信了 “我想要防卫我的观点” 的这个念头而已。嗯，你真的明白了。

Oprah: I got it, I got it. So I want to actually do the work with you.But the other thing that I love that you present early on in "loving what is",is about the ,the three businesses you said ，there's your business,there's everybodu else's business,and there's God's business.(Katie: Yeah) .And I just want to share that with you ,the listener out there, because if you just got that,if you just got that, from today's coversation,you could really really tend to do your business and leave other people's business alone.

奥普拉：我明白了，我明白了。所以，我想和你做一个实际的功课。此外，我在你的《一念之转》的书的前几章读到一段，我非常喜欢。就是，你说过世界上只有三种事：你的事儿、别人的事儿、老天爷的事儿。（凯蒂：是的）。我想和节目的听众分享一下。因为如果你真的明白了这一点，你真的能从今天的访谈中领悟到这一点，你就有可能真的真的倾向于只做自己的事情就好了，而不去操心别人的事情。

Katie: So powerful. Can you imagine if we all took care of our business.

凯蒂：非常有力量。你能想象一下，如果我们每个人都把自己的事情照顾好，世界将会是个什么样子么？

Oprah: You just did your business! This, this is so interesting because there was something going on recently. And my girl friend Gail said you need call up this person and you need to talk to them, dadada. And I got pulled into it, and I did ,and I'm on the phone , and I'm telling this person what they should be doing.And just as I hung up the phone, I thought this is gonna come back to me,and it's not gonna be good, and it's not gonna be good because I now I'm in somebody else's business. I should stay in my own business intended, because that's the only business I have any control over. (Katie: That's right.) So, there's your business, everybody else's business and God's business.

奥普拉：你只是做好你自己的事情就够了。这个，这个启示太有意思了。因为最近我身边发生了一些事情。然后，我的闺蜜吉尔就告诉我说，你需要给这个人打电话，你需要和他们沟通，等等等等。然后，我就被拖下水了。然后，我就按照她说的去做了，我打了电话，我告诉这个人他们应该怎么怎么样去做。但是，就在我挂断电话的一刹那，我想到这个事情最终还是会找到我头上，而且应该不是啥好事。为啥它不会是什么好事呢？因为现在我正在管别人的闲事。我应该有意识地管好自己的事儿，因为那才是我唯一能够控制得了的事情。（凯蒂：对的）。所以，世界上有你的事儿，别人的事儿，以及老天爷的事儿。

Katie: Yes.And if anyone feels lonely ,separate, then ask yourself mentally whose business are you in. And it can just bring you right back to where you really are, and that's where the change can take place.

凯蒂：是的。如果有人正在感到孤单、分离。那么问问你自己，此刻你的头脑中正在操心着谁的事情呢？通过这个问话，你可以立刻将自己带回到那个你的本源之地，那儿才是你真正可以改变的地方。

Oprah: You say, staying in your own business. I can find only three kinds of business in the universe, mine,yours and God's. When I'm worried about earthquakes, floods, war, when I will die, I'm in God's business. Do I know what's right for me? That is my only business. Let me work with that before I try to solve your problems for you.

奥普拉：你在书中说，”待在你自己的事情中就够了”。书中说，“我在世界上发现只有三件事：我的事儿，你的事儿，老天爷的事儿。当我在担心地震、水灾、战争、我什么时候会死等等问题的时候，我在操心老天爷的事儿。我真的知道怎么做才是对自己最好的么？那才是我唯一该操心的事儿。在替你操心你的问题之前，请让我先把自己的事儿处理好。”

Katie: And isn't that a full-time job?

凯蒂：那难道不是一份儿全职工作么？

Oprah：That's a full-time job. Just to stay in your  own business! All right. That's our message for today, stay in your own business, and out of other people's business. (Katie: Mentally.). Mentally? (Katie: Yeah.)  Loving what is, Byron Katie, come back,Would you? (Katie: I'd love to.) I'm gonna put the work to work, with me and with you. Uh, We are listening, We are listening  to my soul serious on Oprah and Friends, Thanks for Joining us. Facinating! The work ,and Byron Katie.

奥普拉：那确实是一份儿全职工作。只是管好自己的事儿！好吧。这就是我们今天要传递给听众的信息：管好你自己的事儿，别干涉别人的事儿。（凯蒂：在头脑中）。在头脑中？（凯蒂：是的）。一念之转，拜伦.凯蒂，我们稍后回来，是吧？（凯蒂：我非常乐意）。我将要实际操练一下凯蒂的功课，和我也和你。嗯，我们正在收听的，是我的心灵成长系列节目，名字叫做“奥普拉和她的朋友们”，谢谢收听。棒极了！功课，拜伦.凯蒂。

【第一部分完结】果冻-Angela ， 2018-4-4

starinheart

太长了，呵呵。不得不截成三段来分享。

amy

starinheart 发表于 2018-4-4 11:44
太长了，呵呵。不得不截成三段来分享。

期待。辛苦了

starinheart

第二部分已经翻译完了，太长了。有空慢慢转过来。 着急可以先去豆瓣看看。

starinheart

版权归作者所有，任何形式转载请联系作者。
作者：starinheart（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/doubanapp/dispatch?uri=/note/664378910/

Oprah：Welcome back, Byron Katie, Katie, the author of a thousand names for joy and also loving what is,and creator of the process. Did we call it  the process or the work?(Katie: The work.).These four questions will join any program you've got and enhance it , any religion you have and enhance it. If you have no religion, they will bring you joy and they will burn up anything that isn't true for you. They will burn through to the reality, that has always been waiting. And the four questions are?

奥普拉：欢迎回来。拜伦.凯蒂, 凯蒂是《无尽的喜悦》与《一念之转》的作者，是质询这个过程的创造人。我们该怎么称呼，程序？还是功课？（凯蒂：功课）。无论你此刻学习哪一门心灵科学，信仰哪一个宗教，都能够与功课很好地融合，并让它来增强你的所学。这些问题将带给你喜悦，会将你所有的虚妄燃烧殆尽，它们将燃尽虚幻而只留事实，那个永远在那里等着你去发现的事实。四个问题是指？

Katie: Is it true?(Oprah: Is it true?)  Can you absolutely know that it's true? (Oprah:mm-hmm) And you identify a concept and then you appply these questions to that concept. Third question,How do you react，what happens when you believe the that thought. And the fourth question, who would you be without the that thought.(oprah：Okay.) And I invite people to turn the thought around.

凯蒂：那是真的么？（奥普拉：那是真的么？）。你能百分百确定那是真的么？（奥普拉：嗯）。你找到一个念头，然后用这四个问题来质询这个念头。第三个问题，当你相信这个念头的时候，你如何反应与感受，发生了什么。第四个问题，没有那个念头的时候，你是谁？（奥普拉：好的）。接着，我会邀请人们将那个念头反转。

Oprah: Okay, well. Let's start。Because the last time you were here, you said when you first discovered the work, when you were able to come into this, that you were 200 pounds，over 200 pounds, and that you  had been , um ,depressed and agoraphobic,and really at rock-bottom suicidal and all of those things ,and then the cockroach rolled over your foot, you had the awakening, and since then life has turned around for me for you. （Katie: Radically）Radically. And have you not suffered since that day?   

奥普拉：好吧，让我们开始。因为上次你来的时候，你说当你第一次发现这个功课的时候，当你能够认清事实的时候，那阵子你有200磅（约180斤），超过200磅，你那阵子一直陷于严重的忧郁症和荒野恐惧症，并且真的接近于崩溃自杀边缘等等这些事情。然后，一只蟑螂爬过你的脚背，你觉醒了，然后从那时候起，你的生活发生了翻转。（凯蒂：天翻地覆的变化）天翻地覆的变化。从那天开始，你再也没有痛苦过么？

Katie: Not.(Oprah: Not suffered) Not suffered since that day.

凯蒂：没有。（奥普拉：再也没有痛苦过？）是的，从那天起再没有痛苦过。

Oprah: That was how long ago, Katie?

奥普拉：那得有多久了，凯蒂？

Katie: That was 22 years ago.

凯蒂：那是22年前的事情了。

Oprah: You have not suffered？

奥普拉（难以置信地）：你再没有痛苦么？

Katie：I haven't any experience.You know, I'm very open to suffering,and I haven't experienced sadness, but I'm very open to sadness.(Oprah: mm-hmm). And I'm open to anger. But you have to believe your stressful thoughts before you can experience those emotions.

凯蒂：我还没有经历过。你知道，我对痛苦是非常开放的，我没有经历过悲伤，但是我对悲伤是非常开放的。（奥普拉：嗯）。同时，我对愤怒也是非常开放的。但是要知道，在你能体会到这些情绪和感受之前，你必须得先相信你那些有压力的念头才行。

Oprah: How do you define suffering？

奥普拉：你怎么定义痛苦？

Katie：Um，sadness，resentment，anger. But you know I cry a lot. You know I'm moved to tears, (Oprah: But not suffering).Not genuine. No suffering in it.

凯蒂：嗯，悲伤、仇恨、愤怒。但是你知道，我经常哭。你知道我会感动到流泪。（奥普拉：但是不痛苦？）不是真的痛苦。在我的眼泪中没有痛苦。

Oprah: Have you not lost a loved one? since that time?

奥普拉：从那以后，你有没有失去过亲人？

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Katie：Yes，I lost my mother,seveal weeks ago. （Oprah: Well）A couple of years ago. and, and.(Oprah: Did you not suffer?) Well, I didn't. (Oprah: You didn't suffer?) I didn't. (Oprah: How?) Oh, it was , I'm so full of love, there's no room for it.(Oprah: Oh, God). My godness. I just, I dropped my whole schedule and went to live with her. She had pancreatic cancer, and I stayed with her, and my godness. You know, I'm still waitiing her to die when she died.I was holding her hand , looking directly into her eyes,and and she was there, and then she wasn't, and I continued to look directly into her eyes to see death, and it never happened. It was all in my mind, and because I don't mind death, I see death is a wonderful thing, I see life is a wonderful thing. So uh, you know,when people are frightened of death.

凯蒂：是的，几个星期之前我失去了我的妈妈。（奥普拉：哦。你没有感到痛苦么？）嗯，我没有感到痛苦。（奥普拉：你真的不痛苦么？）。我不痛苦。（奥普拉：那怎么可能？）。哦，这么说，嗯，我充满了爱的感受，没有可以留给痛苦的空间。（奥普拉：哦，天啊）。嗯，非常感恩，当时听到我妈妈生病的时候，我只是，我当时只是放下手边全部的工作，跑去和我妈妈生活在一起。她得了胰腺癌。那段日子，我一直和她待在一起，哦，真是无尽感恩。你知道么？当她已经不在那儿的时候，我还在等待着她的死亡。我拉着她的手，直直地看着她的眼睛，她原本在那儿，然后她不在那儿了。然后，我继续深入地直直地看着她的眼睛，想要看见死亡，但是其实根本没有死亡。（果冻补充：这里是讲在凯蒂直视她母亲双眼的那个时刻，凯蒂所见到的内容。）所有那些都只是存在于我的念头里。因为，我不介意死亡，我把死亡看成是一件棒极了的事情，就如同我把活着看成是一件棒极了的事情一样。所以，嗯，你知道。当人们惧怕死亡的时候。。。

Oprah: When you say she wasn't there. You said, she'd gone as though she disappeared,not she just dis..

奥普拉：当你说她不在那儿了。你是说，她死了就像是消失了一样么？是说她消失。。

Katie: She was there,and then she wasn't.

凯蒂：她原先在那里，然后她不在了。

Oprah：She was there, and then she wasn't？

奥普拉：她原先在那里，然后她不在了？

Katie: Mind stopped identifying as that，that human being. It's gone.(Oprah: mm-hmm.) And when a mind can no longer identify with the body, you know, when the mind says "move，stand up and sit down"，and the body won't do it, it quickly discovers its own game. And there's no way to identify any longer, so it's everything.

凯蒂：念头停止了对其的认同，停止将其认同为一个人类，它走了。（奥普拉：嗯。。）当一个念头无法再将自己认同为一个身体的时候，，，你知道，嗯，当念头说，“动一动，站起来，坐下”，而身体不再听令的时候，它马上就揭穿了自己的把戏，再也无法继续认同自己了，所以其实念头是一切。

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Oprah:So,if you don't suffer,what do you do when you're feeling bad?

奥普拉：那么，当你感觉不好的时候，你怎么做呢？

Katie: You, well you know..(Oprah: Do you feel badly?) No, I don't feel badly.（Oprah: In 22 years）Oh, it sounds ridiculous.Yes..(Oprah:No, It sounds great to me!)  Well, you know.(Oprah: It sounds like I want some of that!) You know, you...(Oprah: You don't feel badly. You don't have bad days?) No, not yet.（Oprah: In 22 years）I'm wide open. No, no, no, no.

凯蒂：你，嗯，你知道。。（奥普拉：你有感觉不好的时候么？）不，我没有感觉不好。（奥普拉：22年从没有过？）哦，这听起来确实有点荒唐，是的。（奥普拉：不，我听起来感觉太棒了啊。）好吧，你知道。(奥普拉：听起来，我也好想来点儿你那样的生活啊。) 你知道..(奥普拉：你没有感觉不好么？你没有难受的日子么？) 是的，目前还没有。（奥普拉：22年来都没有，哦天）。我对痛苦一直都是开放的，确实没有。

Oprah：Okay, so what do you feel when you are not,,, are you joy all the time?

奥普拉：好吧，那么你有什么感受呢，你时时刻刻都是很喜悦的么？

Katie: Well， there's a balance, and it isn't what people maybe would consider joy to be, like happy happy happy happy. Yeah, It's and that happens also. But it's it's a (Oprah: A peace.) There's a balance. (Oprah: A peace, a contendment.)Yeah, Yeah. And self-realization until it's lived, there's no power in it. It has to be lived, love lived ,and and there isn't anything powerful than love.

凯蒂：嗯，那是一种平衡。那不是人们所理解的那种喜悦，就是那种高兴、高兴、高兴、高兴的那种状态。是的，那种高兴也常会发生。那是一种，嗯。。（奥普拉：平静？）那是一种平衡。（奥普拉：平静，知足？）。是的，是的。除非你能够活出你觉醒的那个真我，否则那个真我对你而言并没有什么太大价值。它需要被活出来，爱是活的，世界上没有什么能比爱更有力量的了。

Oprah: I love what you are saying that, the main reason you don't suffer ever is because?

奥普拉：我喜欢你刚才说的那段话。你说你不会痛苦的主要原因在于？？

Katie: I don't believe my stressful thoughts. I don't believe the thoughts that used to stress me out. For example.Uh, Back to my mother, when she died, Like uh, the work is four questions and a turn-around.After a person has questioned what they have believed their stressful thoughts, that they have believed,.Uh, they might think ,first,"Oh, my mother died..my mother died..my mother died.."(Oprah: mm-hmm) But you question what you believed,and it's "Ah, My mother died!"  And it's a celebration.And you're so connected.

凯蒂：我不相信那些充满压力的念头。我不再相信那些曾经让我难以负担的、充满压力的念头了。举例来说，再回过来看看我妈妈的那件事，当她去世的时候。就像，嗯，功课包括了4个问句加一个反转。当一个人质询过自己所相信的那些充满压力的念头之后，那些他们深信的念头之后。嗯，最开始，他们可能会想，“哦，我妈妈死了，我妈妈死了，我妈妈死了。”非常悲伤。（奥普拉：嗯）但是，当你质询过你所相信的念头之后，可能会变成这样，“哦，我妈妈死了！”非常兴奋，那变成了一种庆祝。你变得如此联结。

Oprah: Can you say that again?say that again.

奥普拉：你能再说一遍么？再说一遍。

Katie: "My mother died, I'm so sad." turned around,"My mother died! I am so happy for her. I'm so happy for me! "

凯蒂：“我妈妈死了，我好悲伤啊。”转变为，“哦，我妈妈死了。我真替她高兴，我真替我高兴！”

Oprah: Why would I be happy if my mother died?

奥普拉：我妈妈死了，我为什么会高兴呢？

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Katie: Well. Let's look at that. if your mother has pancreatic cancer, why is she better off ,or the baby that dies, that we say they haven't lived out their life. Of couse they've lived out their life. That was their life, from here to there.That was their life. It wasn't too late or too early.

凯蒂：好吧，让我们来看看为什么那是一件好事。如果你妈妈患上了胰腺癌，为什么她去世了是好事。或者说一个小婴儿死掉了，我们常说“哦，他没有过完他的一生”。 他们当然过完了他们的一生，那就是他们的一生，从这儿到那儿。那就是他们的一生，不早也不晚。

Oprah: But I wanted it to be longer.

奥普拉：但是我想让她活久一点儿。

Katie: and you lose. You know there is the reality.

凯蒂：那么，你输定了。你知道，这是一个事实。

Oprah: And so therefore I'm gonna suffer because of that.

奥普拉：然后，我就会因此而感到痛苦。

Katie: That's right. Because you're arguing with what is. Now, why why is it a better thing that my mother died. She no longer suffers, she uh, I don't have to watch her suffer, um.

凯蒂：是的，就是这么回事。因为你在与事实抗辩。现在，为什么说我妈妈死去是一件好事呢？

Oprah: But I wanted her to be here with me.

奥普拉：但是，我想让她在这里和我在一起啊。

Katie: Well ,there you have it. you know, It is a totally selfish thing. It's like " Don't die, it doesn't matter. I'm more comfortable when you live." That's that's, That's is so egomaniac. and that is very painful.

凯蒂：是啊，你确实会这样想。但是你知道么，这是完全自私的行为。就好像是在说 “不许死，不管什么样都不许死。你活着能够让我感觉舒服。” 那是，那是，那简直太狂了，而且那也非常痛苦。

Oprah: That is what you mean by loving what is, or being able to accept what is.

奥普拉：这就是为什么你说要爱上事实，或者是什么就爱什么的这个意思吧。

Katie: Yes ,no matter what happened.(Oprah: Okay.)  

凯蒂：是的，无论发生了什么事情。（奥普拉：好。）

Katie: You konw, I was blind, so so blind , I had uh an eye disease, the Fuchs dystrophy, very painful disease, and I continued with a full schedule, I traveled all over the world. I fell down staircases, flights of stairs, bumped into walls. I had amazing experiences. But uh and and Now I've got two cornea transplants, they said that couldn't happen. But my husband Steven , Steven Mitchell, he's a most amazing man. He googled and he found a way. And I was like the 40 percent (Oprah:cornea transplant?) Yeah, oh my goodness, and people say , "are you going..have you rejected the transpalnts?" and I said “I'm never going to reject the transplants, they can reject me. I'm certainly not going to reject them.” But they have a right to reject me. Everything has a right to its life.

凯蒂：你知道，有一段时间我的视力很差，非常非常差，我得了一种眼睛的疾病，叫做富克斯病菌的病，是一种非常疼的病菌。但是我一直继续按照日程进行工作，全世界出差。我在电梯间摔倒，从楼梯上滚下来，撞到墙壁上面。我有很多奇妙的经历。但是，嗯，现在我进行了双眼角膜移植手术。他们说那个手术不可能成功。但是我的老公，史蒂夫，史蒂夫.米歇尔，他是一个非常出色的男人。他谷歌了很多信息，然后找到了一个办法。我好像是好像是，40%的成功率（奥普拉：角膜移植？）是的。哦，太感谢了。然后，人们问我，“你会有，你有过排异反应么？” 我说，“哦，我从来没有排斥过移植过来的角膜，它们可以排斥我，但是我绝对不会想要去排斥它们。但是它们拥有排斥我的权利，每个事物都有自己生存的权利。”

Oprah: So ,you say in the beginning of loving what is, that it is our thoughts about a given situation that causes a suffering. When we label the situation, and we.. (Katie: The thoughts we were believing.)  The thoughts that we were believing about the situation. And that it is our resistance to whatever the moment is. Now I actually was reading your book and had gotten uh, I was reading your book on Thursday night, and then had to do something all day Friday, and that evening, Friday evening I stared to get really really really sick. I mean all of a sudden, my body are ache and my bone , I was sore achy inside myself so much so I didn't even think I was gona make it home, you know, make it to bed, and there was only my dogs of the house with me and security.

奥普拉：所以，你在《一念之转》这本书的最开始提到，是我们关于一个既定事实的那些想法，让我们感到痛苦。当我们给这个事实贴上标签的时候，我们。。（凯蒂：那些我们所相信的想法），那些我们关于这个既定事实的想法。那是我们对当下所发生的事实的抗拒让我们感到痛苦。现在，我正在读你的书，嗯，我找到，，嗯。我周四晚上读了你的书，然后周五忙了一整天的工作。然后，就在那个晚上，周五的晚上我突然开始觉得非常非常不舒服。我意思是说突然就变得不舒服了，浑身酸痛，非常难受，全身极度难受，以至于我甚至想我可能回不了家了，你知道我连床都快爬不上去了。那时候只有我几只小狗陪我，以及看管物业的保安。