果冻出品：凯蒂 "跟上现实”深度访谈（连载18） ...

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作者：果冻.Angela（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/note/696376400/

接上~

JoB：

Now ,just talk about the "I can't do it." I have "I can't do it." sometimes, but I  somehow I can get past it mostly, and not always.

现在，我们来谈谈 “我做不到” 这个念头。我有时会有这个“我做不到”的念头， 但是不知道为什么大部分的时候我能够克服这个念头，但是并不是总能够克服掉。

Katie:

When you think "I can't do it", your mind will give you all the reasons why that's true. So if you put those on paper and question them, it doesnt leave much "I can't do it".(Right). It leaves when you have the thought "I can't do it."um, you can immediately go to “how would I know that?” I mean that's just a theory.

当你想到“我做不到”的时候，你的心智会给你所有的证据，去证明为什么那是真的。所以，如果你把那些念头写在纸上去质疑它们，那么“我做不到”这个念头就不剩下什么了。（是的）。通过功课，它会让你当想起“我做不到”的时候，嗯，你立刻就会想到 “我怎么知道我做不到呢?"，我的意思是，那只是一个理论而已。

JoB：

A thought, right?

只是一个想法，对么？

Katie：

Yeah，it's llike , well, you , you can't know that you can't , and you can't know that you can. It's just that one is easier than the other. One is uh less in your way, because there's less trail to prove it.

是的，那就像是，嗯，你无法知道你做不到，同时，你也无法知道你能做到。只不过其中一个念头比另一个相对更让人舒服一些罢了。相对来说，其中一个念头不那么阻碍你的道路而已，因为心念相对也不会滑太远去证明它。

JoB:

Which is easier ? En, I can't?

哪一个更容易些？嗯，我做不到？

Katie:

I can. ("I can" is easier...？) Sure, sure, because when you believe I can, your mind immediately trails into ways and options,(Right), pulling it off.But when you're into,, when you believe "I can't do it",  your mind immediately is showing you all the reasons you can't.(Right.)

我能做到。（”我能做到“更容易些？）当然，当然了啊。因为当你相信我能做到，你的心智马上就会立刻去搜寻各种方法和途径，（是的），然后念头就落下来了。但是当你，嗯，当你相信了”我做不到“的时候，你的心智会立即搜寻各种理由来证明你做不到。（是的）

So, either way when you believe it, the mind supports that.(Right). That's how you, uh, continue to believe. So with this mind, the way, the way it's working from here, like my mind is everyone's mind, and the way, the way it speaks and lives and exists and believes from here, is uh... If someone says," Katie, you can't do it." I think, "you know, they could be right, and who knows." I don't have to go "rah, rah, rah, yes I can... " It's " who knows, they could be right.Who knows" But I don't believe I can, I don't believe I can't,  and if it's something I want, I just move to it. (Right, and ... ) And I notice I just moved to it, or I don't. And even, even a want isn't true. They're just the stories the mind tells, as life appears to go.

所以，不管怎么样，当你相信了它，心智就会证明它。（是的）。那也是为什么你，嗯，你会一直相信那个念头。所以，如果是对于这个心智（凯蒂指自己），对于坐在这里的这个心智的话，那就像是说我的心智就是每个人的心智，它所说的，所活出来的，所存在的，所相信的，是，嗯。。。打个比方，如果有人说，”凯蒂，你做不到。“我会想，”你知道，他们或许说得对，但是谁知道呢？“ 我不会迫使自己去哇啦哇啦哇啦的辩解，去说我能做到。同时，如果我想要什么东西，我只是去做就好了啊。（对的，嗯）同时，我注意到自己去做了，或者没去做。甚至，甚至一个想要的念头都不是真的。它们只是心念随着生活的展开，所编造的故事而已。

JoB：

Right. You've mentioned that there're no new stressful thoughts.

是的。你提到过，世界上没有新鲜的有压力的想法。

Katie:

Yes, all recycled, and I've noticed that in every language, every country in the world that I've ever traveled, gilgamesh(吉尔伽美什,传说中的苏美尔国王), the oldest known, written epic, the oldest epic , known to man, and it was chiseled in clay, and all of the beliefs that are in that book, and my husband translated (mm-hm) this book, so I had an opportunity to ,to ,uh, to look into it, and I saw what I've known for more than 20 years, and that is there are no new stressful thoughts, chiseled into that that clay stone. There, we're still living them today, we're still believing them today. And if you think uh, um, any belief that we have considered here, talked about today, nothing new, nothing new,nothing new.nothing new.nothing new. And when we look at, uh, at the questioned mind, and how it just flows and cuts through everything, it just does not have time to get stuck.(Right) And it has no way to get stuck. It's free.

是的，所有的有压力的念头都是被回收的。我注意到我所到过的地方，无论是什么国家什么语言，都没有什么新鲜的有压力的念头。甚至苏美尔国王，最古老的著名的史诗诗人，众所周知的人，他的史诗被雕刻在石壁上面。那本书中所有的信念都一样。因为我丈夫在翻译这本史诗（嗯），所以我有机会能看到它，我看到了近20多年来的我熟知的那些个念头，所以说根本没有什么新鲜的念头，雕刻在石壁上的史诗中也一样。那些信念，我们今天依然活在那些信念之下，我们今天依然还相信那些念头。如果你想一下我们今天所谈到的这些想法，根本没什么新鲜的，没什么新鲜的，不新鲜，不新鲜，不新鲜。。当我们去看那个充满质询的心的时候，你会看到它只是顺畅的流动，并穿越所有，它根本没时间去卡顿或停留（是的）。根本不可能卡住，它是自由的。

JoB：

When you say new stressful thoughts, do you mean... (There're no new stressful thoughts.) There're no new stressful thoughts.That's it?

当你说到”新鲜的有压力的念头“，你的意思是。。。？（根本没有新鲜的有压力的念头。）根本没有新鲜的有压力的念头，就这样？

Katie:

Yeah. And that's , you know, the judge- your-neighbor worksheet I , uh, I designed it, uh, just understanding that, all thoughts are about "I want, I need, you should, you shouldn't..."(Oh, Yeah.Right) And it's , it's all lined out, "I don't ever  want to ..." and basically "It's your fault."  And "if you changed, then my life would be better. And of course so would yours...." And, uh, that's ridiculous. We've been working under that system forever ,and  we're still at war with the self, war in our homes, communities, countries, world.

是的。你知道，那是批评邻人作业单，我设计的那个单子，嗯，就是理解那个单子，所有的想法都是围绕着，”我想要，我需要，你应该，你不应该。。。“（哦，对，是这样的。）嗯，作业单中把所有这些想法都画好了，比如”我再也不想要。。。“等等。基本来看，所有的念头的潜台词都是，”这是你的错”， 同时，“如果你改变了，那么我的生活会变得更好。当然，你的生活也会变得更好。。。”等等这些念头。嗯，那样想是，嗯，是荒谬至极。我们长期以来始终都在这样的信念体系之下，我们依然还是在与自我作对，与我们的家人作对，与社会、国家、世界作对。

It's like a child isn't born when they come out of the womb, the child is born the moment that they become a believer. It's like the parent could say, "Your name is, is Emily.“ And, and let's say Emily, is this little infant, and the parent could say," You're Emily, you're Emily." She's just a gogo-gaga.( Right), She's, she is, not gonna, you know, that means nothing to her. When she gets a little older, "Emily,Emily,Emily" means nothing to her, nothing at all. And then in some moment, she,,, you say," You're Emily." She becomes a believer, (Right), and in that moment, she's born with whatever it is. I could say "it's a tree." The moment she becomes a believer, she's born, she is seperated out. And who did it? Not the parent, the believer, the mind is identified as ,as this( Katie Pointing to her face),(Right),as I.

这就像是说，一个婴儿从妈妈的子宫里生出来的那一刻，并没有出生。只有当这个孩子相信了自己的念头的那一刻，他们才算是真正的出生。就像是，父母会说，“你的名字是艾米丽” 嗯，我们假设那个小孩叫艾米丽，是一个很小的小婴儿。她的父母说，”你是艾米丽，你是艾米丽。” 而她只是咕咕嘎嘎而已（是的），她，你知道，那些话对她来说一点儿意义也没有。当她长大一点儿，“艾米丽、艾米丽、艾米丽” 对她来说，还是一点儿意义也没有，她根本听不懂。然后，在某一个时刻，她，嗯，当你说，“你是艾米丽。” 她相信了。（是的）在那一时刻，她才真正出生，不管那是什么。我也可以说，“那是一棵树。” 当她相信了这个念头的那一刻，她出生了，她把自己分离出来。谁让她出生的？不是父母，是那个相信了念头的人做到的，心智开始将自己定义为这个身体（凯蒂摸着自己的脸说），定义为一个“我”。（是的）

JoB:

And before that, she was not I..?

在此之前，她没有一个“我”？

Katie:

She was, she was only what you believed her to be. And she was not bothered.(Right,haha). She was a non-believer.(Right). And, and ,she  was nothing. And you said "She cries, she's hungry, she's thirsty, she needs her diaper change." But she never told you that, and you interpreted her crying as that, and good, you change her diaper, you feel better. And but we , we say"she this, she that,she this, she that, she wants up, she wants down, she's sleepy, she wants to get...." You know, and she ,, you know, it's a wonderful story. And there you have it.

她，她只是你所认为的她是什么而已。而她根本毫不在乎。（对的，哈哈。）她不相信任何的念头。（是的）。所以，所以，她什么都不是。同时，你说，“她哭了，她饿了，她渴了，她需要换个尿不湿。”但是她从没有告诉过你她要换尿布，你只是把她的哭翻译为需要换尿布。那样做也很好，你给她换了尿布，你感觉良好。但是，当我们说，“她是这样，她是那样；她是这样，她是那样，她想要上去，她想要下去，她困了，她想要。。”的时候，要知道，她，，你知道，那只是一个不错的故事而已。那是你的故事。

JoB:

Right.Can a depressed person get out of being depressed without medication or therapy?

对的。那么一个抑郁的人能否不用吃药和医学治疗就能够脱离抑郁的呢？

Katie:

You know, , um ,I know that I did, and if I did, you know, from the tomb that I was living in, that um, if I can, I don't know why anyone else couldn't. And I don't know. I know it's possible because I walk that.

你知道，嗯，我知道我做到了。如果我能够做到，你知道，我从那个生活的坟墓中爬了出来，如果我能做到，我不知道为什么其他人不能做到。同时，我也不确定。我知道那是有可能的，因为我走过来了。

JoB:

Right. I mean but even for me, I mean I ,, It's hard for me to say,  I don't know what one other person's depression is, but  as you talk today about stressful thoughts.

是的，我的意思是，甚至对我来说，我的意思是，，，，很难讲，我也不知道其他的抑郁什么，但是既然你今天说到了有压力的想法。。。

Katie:

There're no new one, so ,,(Yeah,),I know what they're believing.(Right.) I mean there are no mysteries, it's over. I mean when you know your own mind, it's over.When you ,once you understand mind,the mystery is gone. So that's the end of seeking anything.

没有新鲜的压力，所以（对）我了解他们在相信些什么念头（对的）。我的意思是，没有什么神秘的念头，就这些，完事了。我是说，当你了解了你自己的心念之后，就完事了。当你，一旦你能够明白心念，所谓的神秘就消失了。所以，那是对追寻的终结者。

JoB:

So let's say, you know, if I have a stresssful thought, " She doesn't love me." , whatever, I ，I mean there's I can think of many, and let's say the guy in prison, whatever he believed, you know, and then he murdered his... (His girlfriend.)  his girlfriend. What's the difference I didn't murder,,,, you know, I had the same stressful thoughts. but I didn't do what he did.

打个比方，你知道，如果我有一个有压力的念头，“她不爱我。” 不管什么念头都好，我，我的意思是，我能够找出好多个。比方说，那个关进监狱的家伙，不管他相信什么念头，你知道，然后他谋杀了他的女友，（他的女友）。那么，我们的区别在什么地方? 为什么我没有去谋杀，要知道，我也想着那些同样的想法啊，但是我为什么没有做他做的那些事情呢？

Katie:

Well, if you look at the stressful thought, "She doesn't think I'm worthy." The mind shows all the proof. Well,yours trails so far, and then comes back. But his is just keep showing, all the proof that it's true, what he's believing about her. And then uh, all of these that's holding it up, it's huge.mmm-hmm, that's how murder happens. But if you question this one, like "She doesn't think I'm worthy, or worthwhile." Is it , and it starts to show you all the proofs and you question it, "Is it true?" Then this drops,(Right.), and you can wait to, uh, to see "Can I absolutely know that it's true?"

嗯，这么说吧，如果你去看那个有压力的想法，“她认为我配不上她”，然后心智会展示给你所有的证据。嗯，你的心智会跑出这么远（凯蒂用双手比划了一臂的距离），然后又跑回来了。但是他的心智却是一直在展示那些证据，所有那些证明这个念头是真的的证据，证明他所认为的她是那样想的证据。然后，所有这些支撑着那个念头为真的，心念所提供的证据，是巨大的。嗯，那也是为什么会发生谋杀的情况。但是，如果你质询这个念头，就像是，“她认为我配不上她，或者她认为我不够好”，然后心念给你提供所有的证据，当你质询它的时候，“那是真的么？”然后，这个念头就落下来了（是的）。然后，你静心等待着，去看看，“我能百分之百确定那是真的么？”

And what I like to do,, it's like if, if I had the thought "You don't like me."Uh, I absolutely know that No.1 ,it's none of my business, it's ridiculous. And No.2, that I can't know your mind. Because mind is, you know, there's one mind, but if you put it all together, it's one schizophrenic mind, one multiple personality mind, you know, it's thought,um in time and space, it just appears to be happening differently. But if you put it all together. It's one mind, no time in it. So it appears to be in time.

我喜欢去做的是，比方说，如果我有这个念头，“你不喜欢我”。嗯，我绝对知道，第一，那跟我无关，那很荒谬。第二，我无法知道你的心思。因为念头是。。你知道，只有一个念头。但是如果你将所有的念头放在一起，那是一个精神分裂症的心念，一个多重人格的心念，要知道，它是在时间和空间中的想法，它只是看起来不同而已。但是，如果你把所有的心念放在一块，只有一个心，心念之中没有时间，所以它只是看上去仿佛像是存在于时间当中的。

If I had the thought um, "He doesn't like me" Immediately I would just say, " Do you like me?"  and use your mind. And if you said,"I don't". Then I think, "That's interesting, our minds match."(Em haha). And if you said "I do." I think," Well, that's interesting." You know, nice to know the truth. And I believe everything you say, just like I believe, uh, everything I think, Uh, one way or the other， It's just mind repecting mind.(Right).Mind respecting itself, mind's not at war with its own mind, which is every mind, all mind.（And then ,any answer..）Mind always met.(Right).

如果我有一个念头，嗯 “他不喜欢我”，我马上会说“你喜欢我么？” ，去使用你的心念。如果你回答说，“我不喜欢你” 。那么我会想，“太有趣了，我们想的一样。”（嗯，哈哈哈~~）如果你说，“我喜欢你。” 我会想，“哇，太有趣了。”你知道，很高兴知道真相。我相信你说的每一句话，嗯，就像是我相信我所想的每一件事一样。换句话说，那只是心念在尊重心念。（是的）。心念在尊重它自己，心念不再与它自己的念头开战，它自己的念头同时也是每一个人的念头，也是所有人的念头。（所以，任何回答。。。）心念永远相遇。（是的）

And , and it's not valid, because it's uh, I understand how mind changes.That's how it appears in time.So I've the thought "He doesn't like me.", you know, it doesn't do a lot of good to ask you, because 10 minuters later, you might like me.(Right) So mind changes like that, depending on the story appearing that it's attached to.

同时，这样说也不准确。因为，嗯，心念，我明白心念是多么的善变。那也是为什么，让它看起来好像是出现在时间中一样。所以，如果我有一个想法，“他不喜欢我。” 你知道，直接去问你也没什么用，因为10分钟之后，你可能有喜欢我了。（是的）所以，心念的变化就像是那样，取决于它当时所依附的那个故事。

~ 待续~