果冻出品：凯蒂 "跟上现实”深度访谈（连载19-完结篇） ...

starinheart

果冻叨叨：哇喔，我以为要30篇日记才能译完，长舒一口气，呵呵。最后一篇之后，果冻对凯蒂的分享估计要停笔了。

豆瓣日记的这些凯蒂的内容应该足够回味了，呵呵。就像乔什在末尾说的，这个听打并翻译的过程对我来说，也是一段纯粹而美好的旅行（A pure wonderful journey），感谢所有追着看完果冻日记的小伙伴们，祝福大家~

接上~

JoB：

I think is there something said about, you know, if , if I'm hurting and you're not, then can you be assistant to me...(Yeah).Right,there's something...

我想到你说过的一些话，如果我受伤了而你没有，那么你能否只是帮助我。。。（是的）有些事。

Katie:

Without both of us being in pain.(Right). You know, one of us, one of us is legitimate in pain,, because,,uh, let's say, you really are, maybe you've lost an arm or leg , ,or you've broken your leg or something, and if I'm projecting what that must feel like, then now we're both in pain. And I can't assist you in the way you deserved, (Right), and the way that I deserved, because to assist you is , is where, uh, my true nature , our true nature lives itself out at its,,, at its highest level.

而不是我们两个人都陷入痛苦。（对的）。要知道，我们当中只有一个人，一个人有理由痛苦。因为，嗯，比方说，你真的，或许你真的没了一个胳膊或者一条腿，或者你摔折了你的腿之类的，如果我投射你的痛苦该是如何如何，，，那么现在我们两个人都陷入了痛苦。同时，我无法以你应得到的帮助那样去帮助你，（是的），也无法以我本应的能力去帮助你。因为，帮助你是，是我的真实本质，是我们活着的最高级别的真实本质，去服务。

But if we're both suffering, you know, your leg's broken, that's legitimate, I'm projecting. That's not, that's not, you know, let me get over it and, and help. And we get over it if we could. But as long as we're believing, as long as we're projecting what that would be like, then you know, it's two people suffering.(At the same time). Nodding.

但是如果我们都陷入了痛苦，你的腿断了，你痛苦是有理由的， 而我在投射那个痛苦。那并不，嗯，那并不明智。要知道，让我们跳过那个桥段，直接去提供帮助好吧。如果我们可以的话，让我们都跨越那个痛苦。但是只有我们相信，只要我们在投射那个痛是什么样子的，那么你知道，就有两个人在那里痛苦（同时）。是的。

JoB:

Sometime when people speak to me, I detect, uh, sort of a note of truth to what they're saying, or not. What is that? Is that true?

有时候，人们和我说话的时候，我能觉察到，嗯，一丝真相，谁说了真话，谁没有。那是怎么回事，那是真的么？

Katie:

Well, they're matching your believe systems, and maybe they've been a little hiden to you, and maybe they haven't. But it's ringing true with you. You are the, people refer to this you're of the sane mind.(mm-hm) And that can be a negative or positive.(So,,) In other words, you can say“I hate living”, and someone else could say,"Me,too." Well, you're at the same  mind, and it just rings true. (And you're the friends. Right. )Yeah, and you just.

嗯，他们只是刚好符合了你的信念体系而已。或许他们有所隐瞒，或许没有。但是，那只是对你而言唤起了真实的感受而已。嗯，人们称之为你有一个清醒的头脑。（嗯）。但是那既有好处也有坏处。（所以呢？） 话句话说，你可能会说“我讨厌活着”，而另一个人可能会说，“我也是。” 好吧，你们两个想的一样。所以他听起来像是说真话。（所以，我们成了朋友，对的。）是的，你只是，，

JoB:

You just like bonded for life, until something..is where we don't agree or somthing...

你们只是因为对生活的观点而绑在一起，直到。。。。出现一些事情，，，而我们的意见无法一致。。。

Katie:

And, and until we project that, you know, uh, "My life is miserable and it's your fault." And then we disagree.

嗯，是直到我们认为，你知道，嗯，就像是，“我的生活很悲惨，这都是因为你的错。” 那时候，我们就会反目。

JoB:

Doesn't sound, you know,,, right, that just,, sounds inevitable though,  that you would have to separate, (It is.), from someone at some point.

尽管听起来不太好，你知道，你说得对，那听起来好像是无法避免的结果，你们不得不分离。。（那是），不得不在某个时间点与某人分开。。

Katie:

Well, you know, that's , that's, that's the way of it. (Oh, yeah) Absolutely. People die, change their minds. And actually,,,  you know, , bodies, it appears,, we just come together, we move, and then the mind just tells the story about  what's going on. What it believes is going on. And actually it just is what it is. (Right.)

嗯，你知道，那就是事情本来该有的样子啊。（哦，是的）绝对是那样的啊。人们会死掉，或者改变他们的心意。嗯，实际上，你知道，身体，它只是出现，我们只是遇到了一起，然后我们离开。然后，头脑只是讲述了一个关于正在发生的事情的一个故事而已。它所认为的正在发生了什么。而实际上，它只是该是什么，就是什么。（对）

When the  mind has gone, as far as it can possible go, it has to stop because it cannot project any further. So for example, uh, if you're,if some one push you out of an airplane, and it's like you're terrified of heights, and you have a parachute on, and they say it's going to be okay, you have two parachutes that one fails, you're going to be okay, the other will open, you have a backup. And they'll tell you the story of how they never have to use the backups all that kind of stuff. And, and so uh, you know, just terrified because you're believing your thoughts.Even thoughts like "I can't do it." " This is too frightening" " A heart attack on the way down."" when I hit the bottom I'm gonna break both legs.“（Right）”I'm gonna hit a tree" "I won't know how.." You know, all those thoughts.

当心念跑远的时候，尽其所能跑到最远的时候，它就停止了。因为它无法在继续投射。所以，举例来说，如果你，如果有人把你推下飞机，假如你非常害怕恐高，你有一个降落伞。他们告诉你说，一切都没问题，你有两个降落伞，如果一个坏掉了，另一个还在，你有后备。他们还会告诉你那些他们从来都没有用到过备用的降落伞，等等一些故事。所以，嗯，你知道，你因为相信了自己的想法所以非常恐惧，比如像是“我办不到。”“这太吓人了。”“下降的过程中我会发心脏病的。”“当我撞到地上，我会摔断腿的。”（是的）“我会撞到大树上。”“我不知道怎么样。。。” 等等等等， 你知道，所有的这些想法让你觉得恐惧。

So, you know, jumping is not frightening, your thoughts about jumping are frightening. So I'm ganna say you're terrified and you juanyway, because you have the thought, you know, " I have to get over this fear." Or "This is ridiculous." and you just jump. Okay. So you pull the chute, and it doesn't open, and, uh, so then your mind starts really moving, and you know, you're still very very frightened, but you pull the next chute. And it doesn't open.

所以，要知道，并不是跳飞机让你觉得恐惧，是你关于跳飞机的那些想法让你觉得恐惧。所以，比方说你很害怕，但是不管怎么样你还是跳了。因为你相信了那个念头，要知道，可能是“我要克服这个恐惧。”或者“ 这太可笑了。” 所以，你就跳下来了。好吧。所以，你拉了一下降落伞，它没有打开。嗯，所以那时候，你的心念就开始跑了，要知道，你还是非常非常害怕。但是，你还是打开了第二个降落伞，而它也没有打开。

And at that point, you know, there's no help. So the mind stops, because it can't not project death. There's no where it can go with it. So it's just ,it just  , it just stops. It has believed a truth, you know, that like, "There Is Nothing I Can Do." And that is a wonderful truth.

就在那一刻，要知道，回天无力了。所以，心念就停止了，因为它无法投射死亡，它无处可去。所以，它就，它就停止了。它相信了一个真相，要知道，那就是。“ 我什么也做不了了。”哦，那是一个很棒的真相。

And when the mind really gets that, it stops. And then you just, when you know there's no hope, when the mind really understands there's no hope. It just enjoys the trip.

当心智真的明白这个真相的时候，它就停止了。然后，你，嗯，当你明白毫无希望的时候，当心智真的理解毫无希望的时候，它就会去享受那个旅程。

JoB:

Really?

真的么?

Katie:

No decision no fear. And that's really the point of the story.you know, there's nothing you can do. So the mind,, it understands that it is not in control.  And no decision no fear.

没有决定，没有恐惧。这就是这个故事的关键点。要知道，你什么都做不了。所以，心智，它明白了它不能掌控大权。没有决定，没有恐惧。

So I like to share with people, you know, the worst can happen on the way down, is a thought.(hahaha, it's ，，，，so fine) .Nothing more terrible in that has ever happened, And nothing were terrible in that ever will.

所以，我喜欢和人们说，在下落过程中所能发生的最糟糕的事情，就是一个念头。（哈哈，所以，没有念头的话，那会很不错？）没有什么比曾经发生过的更可怕，没有什么比没有发生的更可怕。

It's like if someone's coming at you with an instrument to torture you, torture you, you're absolutely living in a state of of grace. You're not being tortured, but the mind will project the next moment.(Right, in other words, you're being pursued..) Let's say you're tied down on a table(Right), and you're fine.

那就像是，如果有人带着刑具要来折磨你，折磨。你绝对是活在恩典中的。你还没有被折磨，但是你的头脑会投射下一刻所要发生的事情。（对的，换句话说，你被追捕。。）比方说，你被绑在一张桌子上，（好的），同时你很好。

And they coming at you with an intrument, and let's say they've been tortured  for days, and they're coming at you again, and in that moment, you are not being hurt.(Right). But you project what they are going to do next and that's where the pain is. And every time I take people to the,to those points, and I asked them what they were believing, they tell me, I asked them to go back. And that's, that's , it's amazing that they'll go back there, because they will do everything to avoid that, so they don't have to live the torture again in their minds. But they will go back for me,and then we find out what they were thinking in those moments, and then we look at the actual torture. And I ask them what was more painful, the thought or the torture?  And 100% they will tell me their thoughts( their thoughts.) And that is without exception.

而别人带着刑具进来，比方说他们已经折磨你好几天了，这次他们又来了。在那一刻，你并没有被伤害。（是的）。但是你在心中投射了他们接下来要做什么，而那就是痛苦的所在地。每次我带领人们做功课，做到这个点的时候，我问他们那时在相信些什么，他们告诉我。。。 嗯，我请他们回溯那些时刻，那太神奇了，他们会回到那个时刻，因为他们愿意做任何事情去回避那个伤痛，以至于自己不必在头脑再去经历那些痛苦。但是他们愿意为我回到那个过去，然后我们发现他们在那些时刻所相信的想法，然后我们在看看那些实际的折磨。我问他们，哪一个更加痛苦，是那些想法，还是那个肉体的折磨100%的人都告诉wood是他们的想法（他们的想法）。无一例外。

starinheart

JoB:

At 43 , "After 10 years of depression and despair, my real life began. What I came to see was that my suffering wasn't a result of not having control, it was a result of arguing with reality. I discovered that when I believe my thoughts, I suffered, but that when I didn't believe them, I didn't suffer.And then this is true for every human being.Freedom is a simple as that.I found that suffering is optional." This was then, "I found a joy within me that has never disappeared not for a single moment." Truth? That's true?

书中的第43页，“在经历10年多的沮丧和绝望之后，我真正的生活才开始起步。我发现我的痛苦并不是源自我没有控制权，而是源自我在与事实对抗。我发现，当我相信了我的想法，我痛苦；但是当我不相信它们， 我不痛苦。然后，我发现这对每一个人都是真的。自由就是如此简单。我发现痛苦是可以选择的。”

这是我想问的，你说“ 我发现在我的内在升起一种喜悦，从那时起直至今天从没有一刻消失过。” 真的么？那是真的么？

Katie：

Well, it's true for every human being, if they were ever just in touch with the "No one believes what they think." They, they attempt to believe that they believe what they think. That's why inquiry works so well. It just wakes people up to what they already know.

嗯，那是真的。对于每一个人，如果他们曾经理解了 “没有人相信他们所想的念头” 的这个真相的时候，都是真的。人们，他们试图去相信“他们相信他们所想的东西”。这也是为什么功课的质询是如此的有效。它只不过帮助人们觉醒于自己早已知道的东西而已。

JoB:

Right, I definitely can see that. (Nodding)

是的，我绝对能够了解这点。（点头）

So,  great, I mean it's a great book.  Because I see it in the questions, you know, the stressful thoughts, and then you start to examine it ,and inquire, and you know, I just don't see any other way, but starting to unravel it.

所以，太棒了。我是说这本书太棒了。因为我带着问题去体会它，你知道，那些有压力的念头，然后你开始检查那些想法，然后质询，要知道，我找不到像功课这样的方法，去拆解自己的念头。

Katie:

Yeah, yeah, it's, it‘s ah,

是的，是啊。它是，嗯，它是。。

the mind coming back to itself,

心回归自己，

the mind finally able to rest in itself,

心最终能够在自身找到安歇，

the mind unidentified with nothing to do but creat,

心不再去界定身份，只是创造

the mind noticing that whatever it did identify with, is just pure creation also, and it's, it's a wonderful thing.

心注意到，不管它将自己界定为何物，都只是纯粹的创造，同时那也是一件很棒的事情。

JoB:

I often wake up in the morning, stessed, and I ,and it does it goes away, and I , it definitely goes away. Now what I, you know, what I've done over the years, is I , I've trained myself to have it go away, I don't even know how. You know, but...

我常常在早晨醒来的时候，充满了疲惫感，我，恩，它确实也消失了。我，它的确后来消失了，现在我，嗯，你知道，我这么多年来，只是，我训练自己去让那个疲惫感消失，我甚至都不知道自己是怎么做到的。。你知道，但是。。

Katie:

You move beyond it.

你超越了它。

JoB:

I move beyond it? (mm-hm) Is that, but now is my,,, when I wake up stressed as that, I think it doesn't even feel like it has anything to do with me...

我超越了它？（嗯） 那是不是，但是现在我，当我像那样有焦虑的时候，后来焦虑感消失了。可是我认为那甚至和我一点儿关系我也没有，我什么都没做啊。。。

Katie:

Well. you know, um, you've learned to move beyond it. And other people don't have those tools.(How did I do that?) Well, your mind just said, somehow "Move into action, this will work". And then mind noticed that it worked, and just stay with it.

嗯，好吧。要知道，你已经学会了超越它。而其他人可能没有那些工具。（我是怎么做到的呢？）嗯，好吧，你的心念可能说，类似 “ 行动起来，这样是有效的。” 然后，当心念注意到这样做确实有效的时候，就保持了这个习惯。

JoB:

And is that a form of inquiry in a way?

嗯，那也算是一种质询的形式么？

Katie:

Well, you just, you just cut to the chase with the mind, you just cut it off, and move.

嗯，怎么说呢，你只是，你只是切断了头脑的胡思乱想，你只是截断了念头，然后起身行动。

JoB:

Right, which is what I did.(mm-hm) And I can remember doing it early...

对，那就是我以前所做的。（嗯），我能够记得以前这么做过。。。

Katie:

And when you do that, when you moved to it, then mind has to stop what it was doing,because it wasn't,, you were, it didn't believe it enough for it to stop what you really did believe, which is "Let's move"." Don't have time for this, let's move."

当你那样做的的时候，当你起身行动的时候，然后心念就停止了刚才的胡思乱想。因为它无法，你，嗯，这个念头“我太疲惫了” 无法足够相信自己，无法停止你所真正相信的，也就是，“让我们行动起来。”“没有时间考虑这个，我们赶快行动吧。”这些你真正相信的。

joB:

Right. and I noticed that it's really kind of cool, is  that might, not all I can't, but like a couple of kids can do it. You know, they wake up, upset,  but by the time we get in a car, they're not.

是的，我注意到真的很酷。就是，或许不是所有人，但是有些孩子能够做到这一点。你知道，他们早上起床的时候，很沮丧，但是当我们坐上车子去上学的时候，他们已经不再沮丧了。

Katie:

Mind changes. They're in a whole different world.(It's very cool.)  Very cool.(Very cool). So what you can imagine if there was no thought to be stuck in, then it's over.(Right.) It's very cool all the time. (Right). And all the time also, it's a story of time.(Right.) It's the story of a past and future. So that Don't-Know is, it's such a balance, Because it's truer than any other thought.

心念转变了。他们此刻在一个完全不同的世界中。（那太酷了）。非常酷，（非常酷）。所以，你能想象么，如果没有念头能够卡住我们的心，那么一切就都搞定了。（是的）。那是在所有的时刻都非常酷。（是的）同时，所有的时刻，也只是一个关于时间的故事。（对的）。那是一个关于过去和未来的故事。所以，“不知道”的心，它是如此的平衡，因为它比其他任何一个想法都更加真实。

JoB:

Wow, you know, I mean, what a journey. Thank you so much, It's a privilege..Um , it's a privilege to meet me. Right.

哇喔，你知道，我是说，真是一场旅行。非常感谢你。非常荣幸，嗯，非常荣幸去遇见我自己。对吧。

Katie:

Yeah.That's how it is, isn't it? Yeah, we sit together and we both get to meet you,and we both come to see that I am you ,and you are me, one mind.

是的，本来就是这样，不是么？是啊，我们坐在一起，我们都遇见了你，我们也都看到了我就是你，你就是我，一个心。

JoB:

Amazing.You know, as a kid, I wanted to be inside my father, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to be inside my mother,I wanted to be inside my brothers, you know, and so , because I wanted to let them,, you know, or just anybody friends, you know, I wanted to let them know,, what effect they had on me (Yeah), and I couldn't do it.(Yeah). And I sort of feel that way,you know, very,  you know, like thank you but I can't..

太棒了。要知道，当我还是小孩子的时候，我想进入我爸爸的身体，我想，要知道，我想进入我妈妈的身体，我想进入我哥哥的身体中，你知道，所以，，，嗯，因为我想让他们，或者我朋友的身体中，我想让他们知道，他们对我的感动有多么巨大（是啊）。但是我做不到。（是的）。现在我也有那种感受，你知道么，非常，要知道，就像是谢谢，但是我却觉得无法表达我的心。。。

Katie:

Yeah, it's uh, it's fascinating to , uh, thank you ,to be enough. And rather than trying to project what you're experiencing into another(Right), to just experience that thank you, and what's behind it, and just feel that, that gratitude, I call it love.(Right). And just let it kill you, basically(Right). Just let it kill you.And uh, enjoy the trip.(Thanks), see what's left. You're welcome,Josh, thank you.Um, it's really been wonderful hanging out together and going through" A thousand names for joy", and meeting your children, and your wife, through,uh, through the conversation. It has been pure joy for me. Thank you for that.   

是的，那是，嗯，那是非常深邃的情感，不足以用语言表达的感谢。同时，与其将那份你正在体验到的感动投射到其他人身上（是的），不如只是去体验那份感谢，以及深藏在那份感谢之后的东西。只是去体验它，体验那份感恩，我将它称之为爱。（是的）。简单讲，就让那份爱融化你，（是的），就让他将你淹没。嗯，享受这趟旅程，看看还剩下些什么。（谢谢你）不客气，乔什， 谢谢你。嗯，真的很棒，能够和你在一起并分享这本《喜悦无处不在》，能够在交谈中遇见你的孩子们，你的妻子。对我来说，真是纯粹的喜悦。谢谢你带给我的喜悦。

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