果冻出品：凯蒂 "跟上现实”深度访谈（连载4）

starinheart

果冻叨叨：先丢一个问题，为什么凯蒂的新书叫做《A mind at home with itself》? 怎么理解这个题目？（纯粹想到这个问题，意外发现下面的这段视频居然藏有回答，哈哈。。无巧不成书啊~~）

接上~

JoB：

You know,when I read the book, where did the questioning start?

你知道，当我开始读这本书的时候，这种用问题进行提问的方式是从哪儿来的呢？

Katie:

So, your mind has ,um, discovered for itself ,the power of “Is it true？”, it had found a way to use itself , mind has found a way to use itself to that question, to get a balance with itself, and actually to find resolution with itself，to actually end the war with itself. And it's just getting a taste of that possibility, which is what it's always really wanted to do. It's always wanted to be at peace with itself. So ,that it could create freely and still remain as, as identified as something. It has to ,to exist.(Right)

嗯，其实是你的头脑，发现它自己可以利用“这是真的么？”这句问话的力量。念头发现了一个利用自己的方式，念头发现了一条路，可以利用自己来发问，然后达到自身的平衡。实际上是发现了自我解脱的方法，是终结与自己一直对战的解脱之路。而且，它品尝到了解脱的滋味，这也正是心念一直真的想要获得的解脱。它总是想让自己回复平静。所以，通过这些问句，它依旧还可以自由创造，而且依旧还可以将自己认定为某种东西。它只是，只是想要让自己存在。（对的）

What I've  discovered is mind can identify as this(body), and have the most amazing freedom knowing that it's not this identification. And that is total freedom for the mind because it , it doesn't ever have to fear its own death again. And as long as identified as a body, mind's focus is about body's security, and comfort, and pleasure. And it keeps it identified and lost.

我发现，念头其实可以将自己认定为是这个身体，同时又可以感受到最令人激动的自由，深知自己不是这个所认定之物。这对于念头而言，简直是全部的自由。因为它再也不用担心自己的死亡了。只要念头还将自己认定为一个身体，念头就会聚焦在身体的安全、舒适和享乐上面。然后，它会顽强地坚守这个身份并就此迷失自己。

But once mind wakes up with " is it true?" ,for example (right), and those other three questions, then it begins to understand that ,I am NOT that, I am NOT I, I um..  mind free.(Right). Mind free, not limited, no longer limited. But as long as identified and believes that it is this(body), a body, then it's, it's got to fear, it's got to fear its own demise. And it's um.. With " is it true.", it begins to wake up, but very exciting to find is it true. (Oh, very exciting.) very exciting.

但是，一旦念头通过“这是真的么？”这句问话清醒过来，举例来说，或者其他的三个问话。那么它就会开始理解到，原来“我不是那个，我不是我，我。。” 嗯，念头就彻底自由了。（是的）。念头解脱了，不是局限的了，也不会在受限制了。但是，只要念头还认定并深信自己等于这个身体，那么，它就必然会感觉到恐惧，恐惧它自己的死亡。嗯，借助“那是真的么？”它开始清醒，而且不是恐惧地清醒，而是非常兴奋地去发现“这是真的么？”（是的，非常兴奋）非常兴奋。

And I think it's an old question that has been around for centuries, and the way people have used that question has been not this. So , it's like the thought arising, you know, the concept that is bring on the stress, to identify that, and put "is it true" up against that.(Right) That's what's new.(Right). That's what's new to the human race, mind。 and "Oh, my! Is it true?" is undoing itself quickly, it's unravelling. You know, the end of the world is not the end of Earth or a planet.

我认为这是一个古老的问句，或许已经存在了几个世纪。只不过人们从来没有这样使用过它。所以，就像是，当念头升起的时候，那些带来压力的念头升起来的时候，识别出它们，然后用“这是真的么？"这句问话来迎接它。（对的）。这种利用方式是新颖的。（对的）。这对于人类以及念头而言，是一种新的方法。“哦，我的天啊，这是真的么？”是念头快速的自我解缚，它开始松解。要知道，世界的终了并不是地球的终了或者行星的毁灭。

The end of the world is the end of mind's identification , um ,as who and what it believes itself to be.

世界的终了是念头认定的终了，嗯，是心念将它自己认定为是某人或者是什么样子的终了。

You know, I have a friend paralyzed from head to toe,that's living a very full happy life,he says, because he works with his mind, and he loves everything he thinks, he says. And so it just doesn't require a body.

你知道，我有一个朋友，从头到脚全身麻痹，他说自己过着非常快乐的生活。因为他处理的是自己的念头，他说他热爱每一个念头。所以说，其实念头实际上并不需要一个身体。

JoB:

How did you come up with the work , the four questions, the turnarounds.

你怎么遇到功课的呢？那四个问题、反转是怎么来的呢？

Katie：

Well，actually，I just sleeped on the floor because I was so depressed, and so full of self-loading, that I didn't believe I deserved a bed to sleep in, and so I would sleep on the floor. And, um , one morning, actually a cockroach crawled over my foot, as I lay sleeping, and I opened my eyes, and after a decade, more than a decade of um, very deep depression, clinical depression, there was no way out of it to my mind. But in place of all that darkness, when I opened my eyes that morning, was a world that is indescribale. It was and is amazing, and then mind hit. There was nothing, and then there was mind, and mind , I could say I realized that, not one thought running through my head was true.

嗯，实际上，我只是躺在地板上，因为我非常沮丧，充满了心理负担，我觉得自己不配睡在一张床上，所以我宁愿睡在地板上。嗯，一天早上，实际上在我躺着的时候，有一只蟑螂爬过我的脚背，然后我睁开眼睛。在经历了大约十二年，不止十二年，极度抑郁的、医学上诊断为严重抑郁的漫长时间，我的心念没有出路。但是那天早上，当我睁开眼睛的时候，所有的黑暗深渊不见了，取而代之的是无法用言语形容的全新的世界。它当时是那么令人兴奋，现在依然是那么令人兴奋。然后，念头开始攻击这个世界。先是什么都没有，然后是念头。我可以说我意识到，我头脑中所有的念头无一是真实的。

Because I had experienced what true was prior to all thoughts. So I had, um, a reference for what is and what isn't. And so nothing was true, and that's where the question was born. And the first question when I first begin is "Is it true?", " Can you really know that it's true?" and it was all one questions. So there were only three. And I say in that moment, that mind hit, that the world immediately became separate out of names, like tree, wall, ceiling. And I saw that it wasn't .And I saw that, that is, ,that naming was the seperation.  

因为我体会到了所有的念头都没有时的真实情况。所以，我有一个标的可以参考，什么是真的，什么不是真的。所以说，没有一个是真的，那也是功课的第一个问题诞生的地方。我最开始的第一个问题是，“这是真的么？你能确定这是真的么？”其实，这都是一个问题。所以说，功课是实际上只有三个问题。我说过在哪个时候，念头攻进来的时候，整个世界就立即开始分裂为各个名称，就像是大树、墙壁、天花板。但是我之前看到的是“不是”的世界，我看见了，那就像是，命名就是分离。（果冻备注：有兴趣可以看《喜悦无处不在》的第一章，讲的很透彻。）

And so, there was no seperation,and yet the naming. So I had "How do you react when you believe that thought?"  (mm-hm), and then I had " Who would you be without the thought." from the original experience of nothing, no identification. And everything was backwards. It's a tree? it's not a tree. it's a sky? it's not a sky. So, those are the turnarounds.

所以，事实上没有分裂，但是命名让世界开始分裂。所以，我得到了“当你相信了那个念头你是如何反应的？”这个问句，（嗯哼），然后，我又从最初什么都没有的、没有标签的无世界中得到了“没有那个念头你是谁？”的这个问句。从“有”世界回到“无”世界，每个事物都像是在倒带。它是一棵树；它不是一棵树。它是一片天空；它不是一片天空。所以，这些是功课的反转。

JoB；

It‘s hard for them ,you know,  it's hard to get.(It's all done in a moment.) Right.(It was a noticing.)

这个领悟很难，你知道，很难能获得这样的领悟。（那是在一瞬间完成的。）是的。（那只是一种觉察。）

So, you know, what I, what I see from this book, for me, is that I don't have to do that. (No, you don't.) Well,that's anyway not only do it or not to do it. it isn't.. it isn't my life.  (No.) I don't have to be clinically depressed.(No) I'm not.(No). Do you know? I mean I, I just wanna , you know, I think that's important for people, it's important for me to know, cause it's it's in here. It is , it's in "a thousand names for joy".

所以，你知道，我，就像我从这本书中所领悟到的，我没有必要非得和你一样去经历那些事情。（是的，你没必要。）嗯，不管怎样，那不是我去做或不去做的事情，它， 它不是我的生活。（是的）我不必非得像你一样深陷到医学诊断为极度抑郁的那种状态，才能获得那种领悟。（是的，不必）。我不能。（是的，没必要）。你懂我的意思么？我只是，我想这一点对人们是非常重要的，这一点对我很重要，因为这些智慧就在这里，就在这本书《无尽的喜悦》这本书中。

Katie:

No, sweetheart, it's already been done. and the questions are discovered, and it's for everyone, and people use these questions that have wonderful lives, simply because they are so exciting (Right). And that internal life is so exciting, very happy people loves this Work.(Right.) It's an ending. It's um, it's um the end of identification as anything other than what it really is. It's the bottom line truth.

是的，亲爱的，你没必要再去经历我的那些经历。整个领悟已经完成。这些问题已经被发现，而它们是为所有人服务的。利用这些功课的问句而获得幸福人生的那些人，他们，他们只不过是真的非常好奇地去发现这些问题的答案而已。（是的）。那种内在的生命是如此的令人兴奋，并不是只有沮丧的人才做功课，那些非常快乐的人也深爱着这个功课。（对的）。它是一个终结。它是，嗯，它是将自己认定为除了真相之外的任何事物的终结。它触碰到了真相的底线。

~~ 待续 ~~