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标题: 奥普拉（Oprah）对凯蒂（Katie）的专访1（中英版-果冻） [打印本页]

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-4 11:41
标题: 奥普拉（Oprah）对凯蒂（Katie）的专访1（中英版-果冻）


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作者：starinheart（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/note/664138845/

果冻叨叨：

最开始，看《一念之转》的时候，就看过这个奥普拉对凯蒂的访谈。当时只是觉得，哇塞，凯蒂真牛。而除此之外，就没有更多的领悟了。时隔一年多，再翻山越岭看过很多凯蒂的视频之后，再回头看奥普拉的这段专访，真的发现里面字字珠玑。一个好的采访者，就如同挖矿人一样，通过尖锐的问题挖掘出智者的智慧之光。果冻结合自己生活中的事件、困惑，每次看这段专访，都能找到内心迷茫的答案。所以，老公总是说，你怎么老看老看，呵呵。其实每看一遍，收获得都是不同的点位。

因为英文是原汁原味的，汉字转译或多或少总会丢失一部分原意。所以我非常愿意将英文对话也记录下来与大家分享。要知道，这是凯蒂思想的第一手转换，如果想要更加深入地学习凯蒂的the work，真的建议大家好好学习英文。你会觉得几乎她说的每一个词都能戳中心窝的感觉。

这是一个完整版的英文-中文对话，时间大约是1小时左右。太长了，分3部分翻译完吧，呵呵。：）感谢Youtube的英文字幕，95%的准确率，省去了我很多猜测字眼的时间，呵呵。

Oprah's Soul Series-  Talk To Byron Katie.

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Oprah: Well. I'm really really excited  today to meet a woman Byron Katie now. I've heard l lot about her in the spirtual circles 。A friend of mine had told me about one of her books years ago, and most recently another friend called me up and said," have you heard of the work? Byron Katie ,the work?" , "Yeah, I keep hearing about this woman Byron katie." So I got her book " loving what is",started reading it and loved it so much because it brought me to another level of thinking about resisting what is,  and so this whole idea of being able to accept the moment ,for what the moment has to offer  and not resisting it, is something I want to talk to her about. And also, but if you don't resist,you just walk around all time like " hu hu hu hu" ,not resisting? we're gonna find out today with Byron Katie.

奥普拉：大家好。我今天非常非常兴奋能够见到这个叫做拜伦.凯蒂的女人。我在灵修圈子一直都在听说这个女人。几年前我的一个朋友就曾经和我谈起过凯蒂写的一本书，而最近另一个朋友打电话又问我说：“嘿，你听过功课么？拜伦.凯蒂，功课？” “哦，是的，我一直都听人提到她。”所以，我就买了一本凯蒂的书《一念之转》并开始阅读，我非常喜欢这本书。因为它将我带向一个更高层次的思考，即关于对抗现实的一些思考。所以，关于整本书的核心理念就是接受当下。即，对于当下给与你的，你都不要抗拒它。而这正是我想要和凯蒂探讨的问题。因为，如果你不抗拒的话，是不是就意味只是像个疯子一样在街头晃荡，满口疯言疯语，什么都不抗拒呢？今天，我们要和拜伦凯蒂好好地聊一聊这个话题。

Opera：...My guest today, Byron Katie, author of a thousand names of for joy -living in harmony with the way things are”and she's the founder of the work , a process of inquiry from which she offers anybody who can learn to identify and question the thoughts that caused their suffering. Katie, everybody calls you right now. (Katie, yes)

I just want say a few things about. Cause everyone who is listening to this series, no doubt you understand that we're also doing online with Eckhart Tolle, our class for a new earth and Eckhart Tolle whom you've undoubtedly heard me talk about over the past several months, says of "Katie's work that it is a great blessing for our planet", is how he describes it. "it acts like a razor sharp sword that cuts through illusions and enables you to know for yourself, the timeless essence of your being." He goes on to call your book "loving what is " the key to know your natural state, which is joy,peace and love. (Katie, yes) That's pretty good compliment coming up.

奥普拉：我今天的客人，拜伦.凯蒂，是《无尽的喜悦 — 与生活和谐共处》的作者。她是功课的创始人，所谓的功课，是一个质询的过程。拜伦凯蒂将它提供给所有那些学会辨别让自己痛苦的念头，并且对自己的念头提出质询的人。现在，大家都称呼她为凯蒂。（凯蒂：是的。）

另外，我还想多说一点。因为每一个看过我们这个系列节目的人，毫无疑问都知道我们也与埃克哈特.托利进行在线课堂，学习他的《新世纪的觉醒》那本书。毫无疑问，我们过去几个月里一直都在提起凯蒂。埃克哈特说，“凯蒂的功课，是我们这个星球的福音”，他这样描述到，“它像一把利刃一样划破了幻境，从而让你能够了解自己，即了解你永恒的本质。”埃克哈特继续说“《一念之转》这本书是开启你真实本性的钥匙，找到你内在的喜悦、平静和爱。”（凯蒂：是的）哇，埃克哈特的这些话真是极高的称赞了。

Katie：Yes. He's a dear friend.( oprah, Yeah) He's a dear friend for everyone.

凯蒂：是的。他是一个亲密的朋友。（奥普拉：是的）他是每一个人的亲密的朋友。

Oprah: You know ，what I found your work takes the message that Eckhart speaks of in a new earth to the next level. It's about putting it in process(Katie, Yeah) in daily basis.

奥普拉：你知道么，我发现你的功课将埃克哈特所讲的新世纪的觉醒提升到了一个更高的层次。功课是新世纪的觉醒在日常生活层面的具体执行。（凯蒂：是的）

Katie：Yeah. It's like Eckhart is what and the work is how. And we've had these masters  throughout  the centuries and centuries and , but how do we do it? You know , It‘s ...well..the work is how.

凯蒂：是的。就像是说，埃克哈特所讲的是“是什么”，功课所讲的是“怎么做”。我们几个世纪以来一直拥有很多很多的灵魂导师，但是我们该怎么做呢？你知道，嗯，功课讲的就是怎么去做。

Oprah: Paint a picture for us how old were you? What was going on in your life?

奥普拉：对我们讲讲你自己吧。你多大年纪了？你过去到底发生了什么事儿？

Katie： I was 43 when this experience happened to me. And I've been suffering just deep deep deep depression suicidal ,and  even agoraphobic , I couldn't leave my bedroom, often for days and weeks other than just go to the toilet, and my hair would stick to me. It was a horrible way to live. I was weighted over 200 pounds and I was desperate and later I found that simply it was the effect of believing my thinking , the thoughts that that we are all thinking.（Oprah：All the time）mm-hmm（Oprah：that run our lives）"My children don't respect me." " They should mind me" and it was that "The world doesn't understand" and "People really don't understand my suffering, my pain". And and you know, victims are violent people I'd come to see.（Oprah: Really） And I was such a victim,and  therefore violent, full of  this hatred turned （Oprah: Rage）rage。

凯蒂：那件事情发生时，我43岁。我持续地陷入深深的、深深的忧郁症之中，接近于自杀的边缘，甚至患上了荒野恐惧症。我常常连续几天或者几个礼拜都不敢离开我的卧室，只有上厕所的时候才出去一下，我的头发黏糊糊地贴在脸上。哦，那是一种很可怕的生活方式。我体重高达200磅（约为180斤）。我极度绝望。后来，我发现这一切遭遇，都只不过是因为简单地相信了自己的念头而已，相信了我们每个人都会想的那些念头而已。（奥普拉：一刻不停的念头）。嗯，是的。（奥普拉：控制了我们的生活）。例如，“我的孩子不尊重我”，“他们应该在乎我”，“全世界都不理解我”，“人们根本不理解我的痛苦、我的伤痛”等等。你知道，我后来发现受害者是残暴的。（奥普拉：是这样的）。我是如此深陷的受害者，所以我变得非常残暴，浑身充满了仇恨，而仇恨转变为愤怒。

Oprah: Right，so not even thinking yourself worthy , Katie to sleep in a bed. You were sleeping on the floor and tell us what happened.

奥普拉：是的，所以你甚至都觉得自己不配，凯蒂，你觉得自己不配睡在床上。你当时睡在地板上是么? 给我们讲讲当时发生了什么？

Katie：Well， actually as I lay asleep on the floor . One morning, actually a cockroach crawled over my foot and I open my eyes and  in place of all that darkness was a joy that I just simply can't described. But the thing that is really important  that I realized is that when I believed my thoughts I suffered, but when I question my thoughts I don't suffer, and I've come to see that this is true for every human being.

凯蒂：好吧，事实上我确实是躺在地板上睡觉的。一天早上，实际上有一只蟑螂爬过我的脚背，我睁开眼睛，发现所有的黑暗全都转变为喜悦，那是一种我难以言传的喜悦。但是在那一刻，我真正重要的发现是：当我相信我的念头时，我会痛苦；但是当我质询我的念头时，我不再痛苦。而且，我后来发现这一点对每个人都是一样的。

Oprah: Tell us were you a spiritual person before? （Katie：No）I mean, doing all of this depression and horrible times,was there a God that you believed in of a God that you felt badly that you didn't believe in?

奥普拉：告诉我们你之前是个灵修人士么？（凯蒂：不是）我的意思是，在你经历所有这些忧郁症与可怕的生活历程的过程中，你相信有上帝么? 还是你感觉糟透了，根本不相信有上帝存在呢？

Katie: Yeah, there was a God I cursed and I really blamed God for my condition , also along with everyone and everything else. And I just came to see differently. I had no teacher, I didn't have a religion. Nothing.

凯蒂：是的。我会拿上帝来诅咒。除了诅咒世界上的所有人和所有事，我也真的诅咒上帝为什么让我陷入这种境地。现在我只是看世界的角度不同了。我没有老师，也没有宗教信仰。我不是那种追求心灵成长的人。

Oprah: Well, is it kind of like I think Eckhart several weeks ago when we were doing our a new earth series and also in his book of power now describes the moment where he says I felt I cannot live I'm so miserable, I cannot live with myself any longer,(Katie: Yeah) and then I question who is the I and who is the myself, are there two of us? Is that what you're describing?

奥普拉：好吧。你的这种经历让我想到埃克哈特。几个星期之前，我和他一直在做一个关于“新世纪的觉醒”的系列专访，同时他的著作《当下的力量》中也描写过那样的一个时刻，他说“我觉得我活不下去了，我是如此地可悲，我再受不了这样的我自己了。”（凯蒂：是的）埃克哈特说，“于是，我问自己，到底谁是我，谁是被受不了的我自己呢？难道有两个我么？” 我想问的是，这与你刚才描述的情况是一回事么？

Katie: Well, it was, it was , it's like that in hindsight. (Oprah: in hindsight) Yeah.(Oprah: It is. )Yeah..(Oprah:Alright. )But, you know there's ..I've  come to see that there's ,there's ,you know, one mind, as people say. And I've really come to realize that. And I've come to see also in that one mind ,that there are no new stressful thoughts. So, if we , if we all or just one,you know ,it's always speaking to myself,(Oprah: yes) just questioned those stressful thoughts, it frees the mind up.(Oprah： So when we ,when we question our thoughts we don't suffer, when we believe our thoughts we do) The stressful ones.(Oprah：the stressful ones)Because the ones like "I really care about you", "Isn't this a wonderful world","I love seeing you", all these thoughts "I love my children", those thoughts are working for us. And who cares if they are true or not, they're working for us. If you are in a wonderful dream, do you want someone to wake you up? No.(Oprah: No.)  But if you are in a nightmare, don't you want someone to wake you up? Well, that's what this work is for, that's what the the work is for.

凯蒂：嗯。事后看来，那种经历是有点相像。（奥普拉：事后看？）是的。（奥普拉：这样啊）是的。（奥普拉：好吧）但是，你知道么？我渐渐发现，其实只有一个心（实相，万物合一），就像人们所说，其实只有一个心。而在这个唯一的心中，根本没有什么新鲜的让人感到压力的念头。（果冻补充：拜伦凯蒂常说的一句话，there're all recycled。它们都是回收再利用的旧念头，反复被利用，产生了所谓的轮回吧。）

所以，如果我们都能够，或者只要一个人能够... 你知道，我在说一个人的时候总是在说我自己（奥普拉：是的），..只要一个人能够质询那些充满压力的念头，它就能让这个心得到自由。（奥普拉：所以当我们质询我们的念头时，我们不再痛苦；当我们相信我们的念头时，我们痛苦）。要质询那些让你感到压力的念头。（奥普拉：感到压力的念头？）。因为，对于那些例如“我真的关心你”，“这难道不是个美好的世界么？”，“我喜欢见到你”，“我爱我的孩子”等等，这些念头对我们是有用的，谁在乎它是真的假的呢，它对我们有用就够了。比如，当你正在一个甜美的梦境中时，你想要让别人把你唤醒么？不！（奥普拉：不）。但是，如果你正陷入一个噩梦中时，难道你不想让别人把你叫醒么？好吧，那就是功课的作用，那就是功课的意义所在。

Oprah: That was the cockroach moment, um Katie , was that you what you call waking up to reality?

奥普拉：你说的那个蟑螂爬过的时刻，嗯，凯蒂，是你所说的醒在现实中的那个时刻么？

Katie:Yes.

凯蒂：是的。

Oprah:Yeah, okay. I'm talking to Byron Katie, author of loving what is, let's go back。 So you have a reality experience with the cockroach, you're there lying on the floor.Then what happens?

奥普拉：好的。我正在和拜伦凯蒂进行专访，她是一念之转的作者。让我们再回来看看。所以，你已经有了关于真相的体会，关于那个蟑螂，你躺在地板的那个时刻的体会。那么，接下来发生了什么？

Katie: The mind hit. The mind hit and in that moment  I saw that what I was believing, what I was being hit was not true for me, because I had just had the experience that it wasn't （true）（Oprah： uh huh）and then in that moment the world instantly happened. There were walls and ceilings and sky and floor and bed...(Oprah: you saw everything differently )  everything differently.

凯蒂：念头开始攻击。我注意到念头开始攻击，我在那个时刻注意到，我曾经所相信的念头，那个正在攻击的我的念头，对我而言不再是真的了。因为我刚刚经历过，体会到它不是真的。（奥普拉：啊哈）。然后，在念头攻击我的那一时刻，整个世界即刻出现了，墙壁、天棚、天空、地板、床。。。（奥普拉：你看到了一个完全不同的世界），是的，一个完全不同的世界。

Oprah:What is it that you absolutely realized, Katie? in that wakening moment on that floor? What is it that you absolutely realize that you could clarify for our listeners?

奥普拉：凯蒂，你到底发现了什么？在那个躺在地板上觉醒的时刻？你到底清楚地觉知到了什么，什么是你能够整理清楚的，并且可以传达给听众的呢？

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-4 11:42
Katie: I am whatever I believe me to be. And then when you question that, Oprah, it doesn't  leave much. If it leaves anything at all for me, it's gratitude and how can I help. It's gratitude and service.

凯蒂：我是我所相信的。所以，那你质询那个身份的时候，奥普拉，你会发现“我”所剩无几。如果说对于我而言，还有残余的身份的话，那就是感恩、以及我能够做哪些帮助。我所残余的是感恩与服务。

Oprah：Okay. But if you are whatever you believe yourself to be, then why could you be also the depressed person，the person who isn't good enough, the person who's never made it, the person who's not loved by her children, the person who's not been received...?

奥普拉：好吧。但是，如果你是你所相信的；那么为什么你还要成为那个沮丧的人，那个不够好的人，那个从没成功的人，那个不被孩子喜欢的人，那个不被接纳的人呢。。。？

Katie: Because I can't believe the thoughts that are happening，they tell me that( Oprah: mm-hmm) If someone said ,"Katie, you're worthless."( Oprah: mm-hmm) You know, I, I realize how painful it is to believe that about someone, yourself or anyone. So if someone says,"Katie, I don't care about you." I just think I hope they do better , I know how painful that is ,to see another human being as less than you see yourself. （Oprah:Okay） And if someone says,"Katie, I love you." I think ,"Oh, my goodness, isn't  that person doing well? They love, they love, and that's the highest standard for a balanced mind.

凯蒂：因为我不相信这些出现的念头而已，是它们告诉的我这些想法。（奥普拉：嗯） 如果有人说：“凯蒂，你一文不值。”（奥普拉：嗯）。你知道，我明白相信这样一个念头有多么痛苦，无论这个念头是针对你自己还是其他任何一个人。所以，如果有人对我说：“凯蒂，我不在乎你。”我只会想，我希望他们能做得更好一些，我知道相信那样一个念头有多痛苦，相信另一个人不如你是多么痛苦。（果冻补充：相信自己不如其他任何一个人也同样痛苦。凯蒂在这里讲的是无二无别。）所以，如果有人对我说：“凯蒂，我爱你。”我会想，“哦，天啊，他做的简直太好了。他会爱，他会爱。爱是一颗平衡的心所具有的最高标准。”

Oprah: Did you question your sanity at all? Did you think " Woo.."

奥普拉：你有没有质疑过自己是不是疯了？你有没有想过 “哇喔..."

Katie: My family did. But I knew, I knew what insanity was, and I knew I frientened people with this awakening , and so I've.. I continued to learn balance.

凯蒂：我的家人质疑过，质疑我是不是疯了。但是我了解，我了解不清醒或者说疯了是个什么状态。我也知道因为这个觉醒，我让很多人感到害怕。所以，我。。我一直在学习如何去平衡。

Oprah： mm-hmm，So you immediately started counseling people then? Couse Who knew?Because you've been this depressed(Katie: yeah) agoraphobic all these time. So why is anybody now coming to your door?

奥普拉：嗯，所以你马上就开始为人们提供咨询服务了么？因为，谁知道你呢？因为你这么长的时间都陷于一个绝望的荒野恐惧症中。所以为什么现在会有人来找你呢？

Katie：Well. It was such a radical experience that was such a change , that even my children didn't recognize me. and, So the word-of-mouth happened, and I didn't know what it was. So people called and they said can you help me, and I said you know I don't even know what this is, but what I can tell you is ,you know,whatever it is ,it's yours. And so actually people would come live with me. I thought it maybe was the air ,the food.. You know ,I had no idea what it was.I had to find references as I went along , and people gave me my references.

凯蒂：嗯。这是如此彻底地转变经历，以至于我的孩子们都认不出我来了。所以口碑慢慢传开，我也不知道是因为什么原因。所以，人们给我打电话问，“你能帮助我么？”我回答说，“你知道，我甚至都不知道这是怎么回事。但是我可以告诉你，你知道，不管它是什么，我都愿意给你。”所以，实际上人们就开始来到我家和我生活在一起。我曾经以为也许是空气、食物的原因。。。你知道，我当时根本不知道这是怎么回事。我在为别人服务的同时，不得不去找其他的参考信息。同时人们也会给我提供一些参考信息。

Oprah: The work is called inquiry, you call it the inquiry.(Katie: mm-hmm) When you were down there lying with the cockroach, did the four questions come to you then?

奥普拉： 功课被称为质询，你称呼它为质询。（凯蒂：嗯）当你躺在地板上，即那个蟑螂爬过的时刻，四个问题是在那时候来到你面前的么？

Katie: It was automatic. I saw that nothing was true, and I saw the mind hit, and I saw the mind believed it. (Opera: Okay) and So that...

凯蒂：那是自动发生的。我看见什么都不是真的，然后我看见念头的攻击，然后我看见头脑相信了念头。（奥普拉：好的）所以。。

Oprah: I say that again slowly. You saw that nothing was true?

奥普拉：我慢慢地重复一遍你刚才所说的话啊。你看到一切都不是真的。

Katie: Yes, It's like nothing was true.

凯蒂：是的，一切都不是真的。

Oprah: Nothing was true?

奥普拉（难以置信地）：一切都不是真的？

Katie:Nothing, no identification.Then the mind hit.(Oprah: Yeah) and I saw the mind wasn't true, and I saw that people believed their thoughts.(Oprah:mm-hmm). But it simply wasn't true for me.That doesn't mean that it's not true for them. So the first four..the work， four questions and turnaround. So the first question。You believing, for example.

凯蒂：一切都不是真的，没有身份。然后，念头开始攻击（奥普拉：是的），我看见念头不是真的，然后我看见人们相信了他们的念头。（奥普拉：嗯）。但是，简单来说它只是对我不是真实的。这并不意味着念头对于他们不是真实的。所以，功课，即四个问题与一个反转。所以，第一个问题，你相信，例如，嗯。。

Oprah：Let me turn in my book to the questions.(Katie: Okay) Go ahead.

奥普拉：我要到书中找找这些问题。（凯蒂：好的）。你继续。

Katie: The first question is, "Is it true?" For example, (Oprah: uh-huh) If I had the thought ,"He doesn't care about me." (Oprah: right) The first question is "is it true?" the second queation,"can I absolutely know that it's true he doesn't care about me." the third question,"how do you react when you believe the thought he doesn't care about me." Well, the whole world is born out of that , you know, maybe I become angry or maybe I become sad.

凯蒂：第一个问题，“这是真的么？”（奥普拉：啊哈）如果我有一个念头，“他不关心我”（奥普拉：对）第一个问题就是，“这是真的么？”第二个问题，“我能百分百确定他不关心我么?” 第三个问题，“当你相信他不关心我的这个念头时，你会如何反应呢？”然后，整个世界就从那个念头中诞生出来了，你知道，或许我会变得气愤，或许我会变得悲伤。

Oprah: Okay,tell us how this worked with you first. You，you are , there're feeling， depressed, miserable ,distraught,all those things, that many people have felt. (Katie: Yes) And the question comes,"Is it true?" Well, I would think the answer would be ,for ,you know, many people who have felt this for themselves,and almost anyone listening , as "Yeah, I am a miserable。 I'm pretty miserable.

奥普拉：好的。先和我们讲讲你是怎么做功课的。你，嗯，你感到沮丧、悲惨、心烦、所有这些，很多人都会有这样的感受。（凯蒂：是的）。然后问题来了，“这是真的么？” 好吧，我会认为答案是，你知道，很多有这样感受的人，或者说几乎每个听到这个问题的人，都可能会回答说，“是啊，我就是惨啊，我就是很惨啊。”

Katie： And that's an honest answer. and that's all , that's all required is the willingness to answer the questions. That's all .(Oprah: Okay). So the answer would be yes, and I say " Can you absolutely know that it' true that you're worthless?" And they might answer yes again.Because the mind immediately is giving them all the proof (Oprah: Right),all the images(Oprah: All right). That‘s how the mind works.

凯蒂：嗯，那是个诚实的回答。这就够了，做功课所需要的只是一个愿意去回答问题的心而已。那就是全部要求。（奥普拉：好吧）。所以，答案或许是，“是的，那是真的。”  然后我会接着问，“你能百分百确定你真的一无是处么？” 而他们或许依旧会回答，“是的，我确定。” 因为他们的头脑会立即提供给他们所有的证据，（奥普拉：是的），一系列佐证你观点的图像都立马出现在头脑中。（奥普拉：是的）。那就是头脑的运作方式。

Oprah: Right, so yes I know I'm worthless

奥普拉（假装在回答问题）：是的，我知道我自己一无是处。

Katie：Yes.

凯蒂： 是的。

Oprah: So far, I'm doing so good.

奥普拉：目前来看，我做的不错。

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-4 11:42


Katie：Yeah，so far. So, the third question ," how do you react when you believe the thought that you are worthless.(Oprah: Oh.) And what happens.(Oprah: It makes me feel even more worthless.) Yes, that your stomach could rotate ,(Oprah: Yes.), you know, tears could happen, depression happens,(Oprah: Yes.),and we become unkind and we wonder what is the matter with us. You know ,I don't want to talk that way to people, I don‘t want to hurt people and we're striking out。And then the mind how do we react when we think that thought ? The mind attacks and then it comes back to attacks you,and guilt happens. (Oprah: Correct.), And so it is this swirls,and how do I react when I believed the thought? I compulsively overate,I  drank, I smoke,and all these addictions kicked in,all. You know, how do we  react when we believe these stressful thoughts.

凯蒂：是的，目前来看是如此。所以，第三个问题是，“当你相信 ‘你是一无是处的’ 这个念头时候，你有何感受与反应？”（奥普拉：哦），“发生了什么？”（奥普拉：那让我感觉自己更一无是处了），是的，你的胃开始翻腾，（奥普拉：是的），你知道，眼泪会流下来，会感到失望的情绪，（奥普拉：是的），我们开始变得很不友善，并且我们还奇怪自己到底是怎么回事。你知道，你可能会想，“我并不想那样和别人说话，我并不想伤害别人”，于是我们奋力挣扎。所以，当我们相信那个念头的时候，我有何感受与反应呢？我会发现念头开始让我攻击别人，然后反过来再攻击我自己，然后会觉得内疚。（奥普拉：对的）。所以，这是一个循环。当我相信那个念头时，我有何感受与行为呢？我强迫自己暴饮暴食、醉酒、吸烟，所有这些瘾头都趁虚而入了。你知道，这个时候，当我相信这个念头的时候，我们就是这样地感受与反应的。
Katie：So then the fourth question, " Who would you be without that thought“ And then just to sit and get still and don't change anything, and I invite all the listeners to ,to  just close their eyes and look at their life just the way they live it, at the market ,at home, doing the dishes, whatever it is, going to work, walking , to look back at their life only drop the thought."Who would you be without your story?" Just drop the thought and look at your life. And you see like..(Oprah: Yes , because in many , in almost every situation,if not every situation,It's not what is happening, It's what we tell ourselves, or the thoughts we have about what's happening,that make it whatever it is) Yes.(Oprah: That's right.) And we can have all kinds of thoughts about it. It's do we believe them or not.(Oprah:  Right.) That's the key. .(Oprah:  Yeah,right.) So then I invite people after those four questions。。。

凯蒂：接下来是第四个问题，“没有这个念头，你是谁?" ，你只是坐在那里，静静地感受，不需要改变任何事物。我邀请所有的听众，只是闭上眼睛，看看他们自己生活本身的样子，或许是在超市、在家里、在洗碗、不管是什么场景，或者是去上班、正在散步等等。只是不带着这个念头去回看一下自己的生活，体会一下“没有这个念头，你是谁？”。只是暂时放下这个念头，去看看你的生活。然后你会看见。。（奥普拉：是的，因为在很多情况下，几乎在每一个情况下，重要的不是正在发生的什么，而是我们告诉了自己发生了什么，或者是我们对于所发生的事情做出的判断，才使事情呈现为我们所看到的样子。）是的。（奥普拉：嗯。）关于这件事，我们会有各种各样的想法。但是关键在于我们是否相信这些想法，（奥普拉：对的），这才是关键。（奥普拉：是的，很对）。接下来，我邀请人们在这四个问题之后。。。

Oprah: And I read from the page one,um, a few basic principles, and um in loving what is, is you say noticing when your thought argues with reality, the only time ,I was underlined, the only time we suffer is when we believe a thought that argues with what is, when the mind is perfect clear,what is is what we want. And I wrote down," Okay, what if someone is being really really  inappropriate? "You are in a situation where something is happening and you don't want it to happen,you even go to the place where it's happening I don't want it to happen. I'm not gonna resist it, I'm going to accept what is. But it still isn't necessarily what you want?

奥普拉：我在你的《一念之转》中的“一些基本原则”一章中读到，在第1页。你说，要注意你的想法正在与事实争辩。“我们唯一会感到痛苦的时刻”，你看我都在这里划了线（奥普拉举起书给凯蒂看），你说，“我们唯一感到痛苦的时刻，就是当我们相信了一个与事实抗争的念头。当头脑足够清醒的时候，事实是什么，就正是我想要的什么。”我在这段话下面备注说，“好吧，但是如果有人真的真的觉得不对劲儿呢？” 比如，当你处于一个情况下，发生了某件事，但是你并不想让它发生？或者你去了一个地方，那里有件事你并不想让它发生？虽然我可以劝自己说，“我不要对抗事实，我要接受这个事实”，但是它依旧并不是你想要的事实啊。

Katie: I would say ,change it..(Oprah: Change it.) with all of your power  change it..(Oprah: Okay.) right here right now, because that's the only opportunity you have.(Oprah: Okay.),right here right now. So you change it. And if that doesn't work, then open your mind  and see a higher way.(Oprah: Okay.). Because it's got to be.

凯蒂：我会说，去改变它吧，（奥普拉：哦，去改变。），用尽你所有的力量去改变它，（奥普拉：好的），就在此时此地，因为这是你唯一能够改变它的机会,（奥普拉：好的)，就在此时此地。所以，你就尽量去改变它好了。但是如果你的努力不起作用，事情并没有改变的话，那么你就开放心胸，从更高的维度去看待它。（奥普拉：好的）。因为事情就需要这样运行（果冻补充：不接受也得接受，呵呵）。

Oprah: You also say I'm a lover of what is, not because I'm a spiritual person,but because it hurts when I argue with reality.(Katie: Yes.) But I wonder if we ,if we take this approach,you say, when we stop opposing reality, action becomes simple，fluid, and fearless. (Katie: Yeah.) I'm thinking though, if we don't oppose reality, when reality is something that we are oppose to，we don't oppose it. How do you ever get anything done?

奥普拉：你在书中也说，“我是事实的爱人，并不是因为我是个灵修人士，而是因为每当我与事实抗辩的时候，我总是受伤。” （凯蒂：是的。）但是，我很好奇，如果我们，如果我们也采取你这个方法，就像你说的那样，停止与事实抗辩，行动就会变得简单、流畅和无畏。（凯蒂：是的。）虽然你这么说，但是我想如果我们不与事实抗辩的话，如果事实就是我要抗辩的，而我们却不去抗辩的时候。。那么你还怎么做事儿呢？

Katie: Reality is the story of the past. (Oprah:Okay, how so?) And we can change the past now. Okay, so reality is so，so um, the discussion we've just had, right now, is the past. (Oprah:It's over, gone.) And it's reality.(Oprah:Yeah.) So if something happened between us that we want it to shift, we have the power to shift it now.(Oprah:Right,now). Yes. And I've come to see that defense is the first act of war. So if I , if I shift， if I attempt to shift things..(Oprah: Denfense is the first active of war. So the moment you start to defend , you put yourself in the position of creating war.) And who did it？ I did,the moment I defended. So we can discuss any shift or I can discuss any shift , like I can give you my experience, I can give you my education, my educated view，if one happens to be there on the topic. And that's all I've got. (Oprah:mm- hum) That's what I've got, my wisdom, my experience.

凯蒂：事实只是过去了的一个故事。（奥普拉：哦，这怎么可能？）我们可以站在现在这个时间点来改变过去。好吧，所以说，事实只是，嗯，比如我们刚刚的那个谈话，是已经过去了的。（奥普拉：嗯，对话已经结束了，没了。）所以，它是个事实。（奥普拉：是的）。所以如果你我之间刚才发生了什么事情，是我们想要去转化的话，（果冻补充：注意这里凯蒂用的词语是shift，而不是change。注意品味两者的区别。shift是指当下的转化，强调自己的内在；change是指对事实的改变，强调外在的现实。）我们只在当下才拥有转化的力量。（奥普拉：现在。）是的。我还发现，防卫是战争的第一步。所以，如果我，如果我想要去转化一些事情。。。（奥普拉：防卫是战争的第一步。所以当你开始防卫的那一刻，你就将自己置于发动战争的那个位置了。）所以说，是谁发起了战争呢？是我，是我在防卫的那一刻所发起的。所以，我们可以讨论任何形式的转化，或者说我可以讨论任何形式的转化。比如，我可以给你我的经历，我可以给你我的教育，我的教育观点，如果那刚好也是这次交流的话题之一的话。这就是我当下所能做到的全部。（奥普拉：嗯。。）。那就是当下我所能拥有的全部，我的智慧，我的经验。

Oprah: Um,is that to say then nothing is worthy of dense? Lots of things that worthy defending.

奥普拉：嗯，那是不是说，没有任何一件事值得防卫么？但是，有很多事情都值得我们去防卫啊。

Katie: Defense is war.and I say all war belongs on paper.That's where it belongs. So we can look at it and question those thoughts we're believing.

凯蒂：防卫就是战争。我认为所有的战争都属于纸面，那才是战争所属的地方。所以我们可以在纸面上看着那些我们所相信的念头，并深入质询它们。

Oprah：Okay, I got it. I just got the shift, because I was thinking when you said that. I'm working on this whole program to really shift the way our country looks at child abuse, and I was thinking I'm defending the children ,I'm defending the children, and even as you said that. I realize I'm really not trying to defend the children, I'm trying to protect them, which is different .

奥普拉：好的，我明白了。我刚刚才明白转化的意思。因为我刚才一直在想你说的那些话。最近我一直在推进一整个项目，主题是要真正转变我们国家更加重视儿童欺凌的问题。我一直以为自己是要防卫孩子们不再被伤害，我一直是在防卫孩子们不再被伤害，即便是你刚才讲那段话的时候，我也是这么想的。现在我意识到，我其实不是努力去防卫孩子们不再被伤害（果冻补充：对抗欺凌儿童的人），我其实是一直努力要去保护孩子们（果冻补充：保护儿童），这两者是有区别的。

Katie: Yes, and you're educating us,(Oprah: shift,shift). And you're educating them.

凯蒂：是的，你通过自己对孩子们的爱与行动教育了我们（果冻补充：自己的一方）。（奥普拉：转化，转化）。你也通过自己对孩子们的爱与行动教育了他们（果冻补充：敌对的一方）。

（果冻补充: 这是一段非常深刻的对话，根据个人理解，我刻意丰富了英文的语意。）

Oprah：And that if I try to defend them that I will end up being the  a part of the war,(Katie: of the problem), of the problem.(Katie: Yes).Yeah, I can't have a war against anything.(Katie:Yes) Yeah.

奥普拉：所以如果我努力地想要去防卫他们，那么最终我会不自觉地让自己成为了战争的一部分，（凯蒂：成为问题的一部分），成为问题的一部分，（凯蒂：是的）。哦，我不能与任何事物开战。（凯蒂：是的）哦。

Katie: That's how wars begin.(Oprah: Yeah, Okay). You know, I'm going to defend my point of view. You got it.

凯蒂：这就是人类为什么会发动战争的原因。（奥普拉：是的）。你知道，战争双方只是相信了 “我想要防卫我的观点” 的这个念头而已。嗯，你真的明白了。

Oprah: I got it, I got it. So I want to actually do the work with you.But the other thing that I love that you present early on in "loving what is",is about the ,the three businesses you said ，there's your business,there's everybodu else's business,and there's God's business.(Katie: Yeah) .And I just want to share that with you ,the listener out there, because if you just got that,if you just got that, from today's coversation,you could really really tend to do your business and leave other people's business alone.

奥普拉：我明白了，我明白了。所以，我想和你做一个实际的功课。此外，我在你的《一念之转》的书的前几章读到一段，我非常喜欢。就是，你说过世界上只有三种事：你的事儿、别人的事儿、老天爷的事儿。（凯蒂：是的）。我想和节目的听众分享一下。因为如果你真的明白了这一点，你真的能从今天的访谈中领悟到这一点，你就有可能真的真的倾向于只做自己的事情就好了，而不去操心别人的事情。

Katie: So powerful. Can you imagine if we all took care of our business.

凯蒂：非常有力量。你能想象一下，如果我们每个人都把自己的事情照顾好，世界将会是个什么样子么？

Oprah: You just did your business! This, this is so interesting because there was something going on recently. And my girl friend Gail said you need call up this person and you need to talk to them, dadada. And I got pulled into it, and I did ,and I'm on the phone , and I'm telling this person what they should be doing.And just as I hung up the phone, I thought this is gonna come back to me,and it's not gonna be good, and it's not gonna be good because I now I'm in somebody else's business. I should stay in my own business intended, because that's the only business I have any control over. (Katie: That's right.) So, there's your business, everybody else's business and God's business.

奥普拉：你只是做好你自己的事情就够了。这个，这个启示太有意思了。因为最近我身边发生了一些事情。然后，我的闺蜜吉尔就告诉我说，你需要给这个人打电话，你需要和他们沟通，等等等等。然后，我就被拖下水了。然后，我就按照她说的去做了，我打了电话，我告诉这个人他们应该怎么怎么样去做。但是，就在我挂断电话的一刹那，我想到这个事情最终还是会找到我头上，而且应该不是啥好事。为啥它不会是什么好事呢？因为现在我正在管别人的闲事。我应该有意识地管好自己的事儿，因为那才是我唯一能够控制得了的事情。（凯蒂：对的）。所以，世界上有你的事儿，别人的事儿，以及老天爷的事儿。

Katie: Yes.And if anyone feels lonely ,separate, then ask yourself mentally whose business are you in. And it can just bring you right back to where you really are, and that's where the change can take place.

凯蒂：是的。如果有人正在感到孤单、分离。那么问问你自己，此刻你的头脑中正在操心着谁的事情呢？通过这个问话，你可以立刻将自己带回到那个你的本源之地，那儿才是你真正可以改变的地方。

Oprah: You say, staying in your own business. I can find only three kinds of business in the universe, mine,yours and God's. When I'm worried about earthquakes, floods, war, when I will die, I'm in God's business. Do I know what's right for me? That is my only business. Let me work with that before I try to solve your problems for you.

奥普拉：你在书中说，”待在你自己的事情中就够了”。书中说，“我在世界上发现只有三件事：我的事儿，你的事儿，老天爷的事儿。当我在担心地震、水灾、战争、我什么时候会死等等问题的时候，我在操心老天爷的事儿。我真的知道怎么做才是对自己最好的么？那才是我唯一该操心的事儿。在替你操心你的问题之前，请让我先把自己的事儿处理好。”

Katie: And isn't that a full-time job?

凯蒂：那难道不是一份儿全职工作么？

Oprah：That's a full-time job. Just to stay in your  own business! All right. That's our message for today, stay in your own business, and out of other people's business. (Katie: Mentally.). Mentally? (Katie: Yeah.)  Loving what is, Byron Katie, come back,Would you? (Katie: I'd love to.) I'm gonna put the work to work, with me and with you. Uh, We are listening, We are listening  to my soul serious on Oprah and Friends, Thanks for Joining us. Facinating! The work ,and Byron Katie.

奥普拉：那确实是一份儿全职工作。只是管好自己的事儿！好吧。这就是我们今天要传递给听众的信息：管好你自己的事儿，别干涉别人的事儿。（凯蒂：在头脑中）。在头脑中？（凯蒂：是的）。一念之转，拜伦.凯蒂，我们稍后回来，是吧？（凯蒂：我非常乐意）。我将要实际操练一下凯蒂的功课，和我也和你。嗯，我们正在收听的，是我的心灵成长系列节目，名字叫做“奥普拉和她的朋友们”，谢谢收听。棒极了！功课，拜伦.凯蒂。

【第一部分完结】果冻-Angela ， 2018-4-4

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-4 11:44
太长了，呵呵。不得不截成三段来分享。

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作者: amy    时间: 2018-4-5 20:33

starinheart 发表于 2018-4-4 11:44
太长了，呵呵。不得不截成三段来分享。

期待。辛苦了

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-6 08:19
第二部分已经翻译完了，太长了。有空慢慢转过来。 着急可以先去豆瓣看看。

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-6 17:31
版权归作者所有，任何形式转载请联系作者。
作者：starinheart（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/doubanapp/dispatch?uri=/note/664378910/

Oprah：Welcome back, Byron Katie, Katie, the author of a thousand names for joy and also loving what is,and creator of the process. Did we call it  the process or the work?(Katie: The work.).These four questions will join any program you've got and enhance it , any religion you have and enhance it. If you have no religion, they will bring you joy and they will burn up anything that isn't true for you. They will burn through to the reality, that has always been waiting. And the four questions are?

奥普拉：欢迎回来。拜伦.凯蒂, 凯蒂是《无尽的喜悦》与《一念之转》的作者，是质询这个过程的创造人。我们该怎么称呼，程序？还是功课？（凯蒂：功课）。无论你此刻学习哪一门心灵科学，信仰哪一个宗教，都能够与功课很好地融合，并让它来增强你的所学。这些问题将带给你喜悦，会将你所有的虚妄燃烧殆尽，它们将燃尽虚幻而只留事实，那个永远在那里等着你去发现的事实。四个问题是指？

Katie: Is it true?(Oprah: Is it true?)  Can you absolutely know that it's true? (Oprah:mm-hmm) And you identify a concept and then you appply these questions to that concept. Third question,How do you react，what happens when you believe the that thought. And the fourth question, who would you be without the that thought.(oprah：Okay.) And I invite people to turn the thought around.

凯蒂：那是真的么？（奥普拉：那是真的么？）。你能百分百确定那是真的么？（奥普拉：嗯）。你找到一个念头，然后用这四个问题来质询这个念头。第三个问题，当你相信这个念头的时候，你如何反应与感受，发生了什么。第四个问题，没有那个念头的时候，你是谁？（奥普拉：好的）。接着，我会邀请人们将那个念头反转。

Oprah: Okay, well. Let's start。Because the last time you were here, you said when you first discovered the work, when you were able to come into this, that you were 200 pounds，over 200 pounds, and that you  had been , um ,depressed and agoraphobic,and really at rock-bottom suicidal and all of those things ,and then the cockroach rolled over your foot, you had the awakening, and since then life has turned around for me for you. （Katie: Radically）Radically. And have you not suffered since that day?   

奥普拉：好吧，让我们开始。因为上次你来的时候，你说当你第一次发现这个功课的时候，当你能够认清事实的时候，那阵子你有200磅（约180斤），超过200磅，你那阵子一直陷于严重的忧郁症和荒野恐惧症，并且真的接近于崩溃自杀边缘等等这些事情。然后，一只蟑螂爬过你的脚背，你觉醒了，然后从那时候起，你的生活发生了翻转。（凯蒂：天翻地覆的变化）天翻地覆的变化。从那天开始，你再也没有痛苦过么？

Katie: Not.(Oprah: Not suffered) Not suffered since that day.

凯蒂：没有。（奥普拉：再也没有痛苦过？）是的，从那天起再没有痛苦过。

Oprah: That was how long ago, Katie?

奥普拉：那得有多久了，凯蒂？

Katie: That was 22 years ago.

凯蒂：那是22年前的事情了。

Oprah: You have not suffered？

奥普拉（难以置信地）：你再没有痛苦么？

Katie：I haven't any experience.You know, I'm very open to suffering,and I haven't experienced sadness, but I'm very open to sadness.(Oprah: mm-hmm). And I'm open to anger. But you have to believe your stressful thoughts before you can experience those emotions.

凯蒂：我还没有经历过。你知道，我对痛苦是非常开放的，我没有经历过悲伤，但是我对悲伤是非常开放的。（奥普拉：嗯）。同时，我对愤怒也是非常开放的。但是要知道，在你能体会到这些情绪和感受之前，你必须得先相信你那些有压力的念头才行。

Oprah: How do you define suffering？

奥普拉：你怎么定义痛苦？

Katie：Um，sadness，resentment，anger. But you know I cry a lot. You know I'm moved to tears, (Oprah: But not suffering).Not genuine. No suffering in it.

凯蒂：嗯，悲伤、仇恨、愤怒。但是你知道，我经常哭。你知道我会感动到流泪。（奥普拉：但是不痛苦？）不是真的痛苦。在我的眼泪中没有痛苦。

Oprah: Have you not lost a loved one? since that time?

奥普拉：从那以后，你有没有失去过亲人？

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-6 17:32
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Katie：Yes，I lost my mother,seveal weeks ago. （Oprah: Well）A couple of years ago. and, and.(Oprah: Did you not suffer?) Well, I didn't. (Oprah: You didn't suffer?) I didn't. (Oprah: How?) Oh, it was , I'm so full of love, there's no room for it.(Oprah: Oh, God). My godness. I just, I dropped my whole schedule and went to live with her. She had pancreatic cancer, and I stayed with her, and my godness. You know, I'm still waitiing her to die when she died.I was holding her hand , looking directly into her eyes,and and she was there, and then she wasn't, and I continued to look directly into her eyes to see death, and it never happened. It was all in my mind, and because I don't mind death, I see death is a wonderful thing, I see life is a wonderful thing. So uh, you know,when people are frightened of death.

凯蒂：是的，几个星期之前我失去了我的妈妈。（奥普拉：哦。你没有感到痛苦么？）嗯，我没有感到痛苦。（奥普拉：你真的不痛苦么？）。我不痛苦。（奥普拉：那怎么可能？）。哦，这么说，嗯，我充满了爱的感受，没有可以留给痛苦的空间。（奥普拉：哦，天啊）。嗯，非常感恩，当时听到我妈妈生病的时候，我只是，我当时只是放下手边全部的工作，跑去和我妈妈生活在一起。她得了胰腺癌。那段日子，我一直和她待在一起，哦，真是无尽感恩。你知道么？当她已经不在那儿的时候，我还在等待着她的死亡。我拉着她的手，直直地看着她的眼睛，她原本在那儿，然后她不在那儿了。然后，我继续深入地直直地看着她的眼睛，想要看见死亡，但是其实根本没有死亡。（果冻补充：这里是讲在凯蒂直视她母亲双眼的那个时刻，凯蒂所见到的内容。）所有那些都只是存在于我的念头里。因为，我不介意死亡，我把死亡看成是一件棒极了的事情，就如同我把活着看成是一件棒极了的事情一样。所以，嗯，你知道。当人们惧怕死亡的时候。。。

Oprah: When you say she wasn't there. You said, she'd gone as though she disappeared,not she just dis..

奥普拉：当你说她不在那儿了。你是说，她死了就像是消失了一样么？是说她消失。。

Katie: She was there,and then she wasn't.

凯蒂：她原先在那里，然后她不在了。

Oprah：She was there, and then she wasn't？

奥普拉：她原先在那里，然后她不在了？

Katie: Mind stopped identifying as that，that human being. It's gone.(Oprah: mm-hmm.) And when a mind can no longer identify with the body, you know, when the mind says "move，stand up and sit down"，and the body won't do it, it quickly discovers its own game. And there's no way to identify any longer, so it's everything.

凯蒂：念头停止了对其的认同，停止将其认同为一个人类，它走了。（奥普拉：嗯。。）当一个念头无法再将自己认同为一个身体的时候，，，你知道，嗯，当念头说，“动一动，站起来，坐下”，而身体不再听令的时候，它马上就揭穿了自己的把戏，再也无法继续认同自己了，所以其实念头是一切。

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-6 17:33
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Oprah:So,if you don't suffer,what do you do when you're feeling bad?

奥普拉：那么，当你感觉不好的时候，你怎么做呢？

Katie: You, well you know..(Oprah: Do you feel badly?) No, I don't feel badly.（Oprah: In 22 years）Oh, it sounds ridiculous.Yes..(Oprah:No, It sounds great to me!)  Well, you know.(Oprah: It sounds like I want some of that!) You know, you...(Oprah: You don't feel badly. You don't have bad days?) No, not yet.（Oprah: In 22 years）I'm wide open. No, no, no, no.

凯蒂：你，嗯，你知道。。（奥普拉：你有感觉不好的时候么？）不，我没有感觉不好。（奥普拉：22年从没有过？）哦，这听起来确实有点荒唐，是的。（奥普拉：不，我听起来感觉太棒了啊。）好吧，你知道。(奥普拉：听起来，我也好想来点儿你那样的生活啊。) 你知道..(奥普拉：你没有感觉不好么？你没有难受的日子么？) 是的，目前还没有。（奥普拉：22年来都没有，哦天）。我对痛苦一直都是开放的，确实没有。

Oprah：Okay, so what do you feel when you are not,,, are you joy all the time?

奥普拉：好吧，那么你有什么感受呢，你时时刻刻都是很喜悦的么？

Katie: Well， there's a balance, and it isn't what people maybe would consider joy to be, like happy happy happy happy. Yeah, It's and that happens also. But it's it's a (Oprah: A peace.) There's a balance. (Oprah: A peace, a contendment.)Yeah, Yeah. And self-realization until it's lived, there's no power in it. It has to be lived, love lived ,and and there isn't anything powerful than love.

凯蒂：嗯，那是一种平衡。那不是人们所理解的那种喜悦，就是那种高兴、高兴、高兴、高兴的那种状态。是的，那种高兴也常会发生。那是一种，嗯。。（奥普拉：平静？）那是一种平衡。（奥普拉：平静，知足？）。是的，是的。除非你能够活出你觉醒的那个真我，否则那个真我对你而言并没有什么太大价值。它需要被活出来，爱是活的，世界上没有什么能比爱更有力量的了。

Oprah: I love what you are saying that, the main reason you don't suffer ever is because?

奥普拉：我喜欢你刚才说的那段话。你说你不会痛苦的主要原因在于？？

Katie: I don't believe my stressful thoughts. I don't believe the thoughts that used to stress me out. For example.Uh, Back to my mother, when she died, Like uh, the work is four questions and a turn-around.After a person has questioned what they have believed their stressful thoughts, that they have believed,.Uh, they might think ,first,"Oh, my mother died..my mother died..my mother died.."(Oprah: mm-hmm) But you question what you believed,and it's "Ah, My mother died!"  And it's a celebration.And you're so connected.

凯蒂：我不相信那些充满压力的念头。我不再相信那些曾经让我难以负担的、充满压力的念头了。举例来说，再回过来看看我妈妈的那件事，当她去世的时候。就像，嗯，功课包括了4个问句加一个反转。当一个人质询过自己所相信的那些充满压力的念头之后，那些他们深信的念头之后。嗯，最开始，他们可能会想，“哦，我妈妈死了，我妈妈死了，我妈妈死了。”非常悲伤。（奥普拉：嗯）但是，当你质询过你所相信的念头之后，可能会变成这样，“哦，我妈妈死了！”非常兴奋，那变成了一种庆祝。你变得如此联结。

Oprah: Can you say that again?say that again.

奥普拉：你能再说一遍么？再说一遍。

Katie: "My mother died, I'm so sad." turned around,"My mother died! I am so happy for her. I'm so happy for me! "

凯蒂：“我妈妈死了，我好悲伤啊。”转变为，“哦，我妈妈死了。我真替她高兴，我真替我高兴！”

Oprah: Why would I be happy if my mother died?

奥普拉：我妈妈死了，我为什么会高兴呢？

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-6 17:34
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Katie: Well. Let's look at that. if your mother has pancreatic cancer, why is she better off ,or the baby that dies, that we say they haven't lived out their life. Of couse they've lived out their life. That was their life, from here to there.That was their life. It wasn't too late or too early.

凯蒂：好吧，让我们来看看为什么那是一件好事。如果你妈妈患上了胰腺癌，为什么她去世了是好事。或者说一个小婴儿死掉了，我们常说“哦，他没有过完他的一生”。 他们当然过完了他们的一生，那就是他们的一生，从这儿到那儿。那就是他们的一生，不早也不晚。

Oprah: But I wanted it to be longer.

奥普拉：但是我想让她活久一点儿。

Katie: and you lose. You know there is the reality.

凯蒂：那么，你输定了。你知道，这是一个事实。

Oprah: And so therefore I'm gonna suffer because of that.

奥普拉：然后，我就会因此而感到痛苦。

Katie: That's right. Because you're arguing with what is. Now, why why is it a better thing that my mother died. She no longer suffers, she uh, I don't have to watch her suffer, um.

凯蒂：是的，就是这么回事。因为你在与事实抗辩。现在，为什么说我妈妈死去是一件好事呢？

Oprah: But I wanted her to be here with me.

奥普拉：但是，我想让她在这里和我在一起啊。

Katie: Well ,there you have it. you know, It is a totally selfish thing. It's like " Don't die, it doesn't matter. I'm more comfortable when you live." That's that's, That's is so egomaniac. and that is very painful.

凯蒂：是啊，你确实会这样想。但是你知道么，这是完全自私的行为。就好像是在说 “不许死，不管什么样都不许死。你活着能够让我感觉舒服。” 那是，那是，那简直太狂了，而且那也非常痛苦。

Oprah: That is what you mean by loving what is, or being able to accept what is.

奥普拉：这就是为什么你说要爱上事实，或者是什么就爱什么的这个意思吧。

Katie: Yes ,no matter what happened.(Oprah: Okay.)  

凯蒂：是的，无论发生了什么事情。（奥普拉：好。）

Katie: You konw, I was blind, so so blind , I had uh an eye disease, the Fuchs dystrophy, very painful disease, and I continued with a full schedule, I traveled all over the world. I fell down staircases, flights of stairs, bumped into walls. I had amazing experiences. But uh and and Now I've got two cornea transplants, they said that couldn't happen. But my husband Steven , Steven Mitchell, he's a most amazing man. He googled and he found a way. And I was like the 40 percent (Oprah:cornea transplant?) Yeah, oh my goodness, and people say , "are you going..have you rejected the transpalnts?" and I said “I'm never going to reject the transplants, they can reject me. I'm certainly not going to reject them.” But they have a right to reject me. Everything has a right to its life.

凯蒂：你知道，有一段时间我的视力很差，非常非常差，我得了一种眼睛的疾病，叫做富克斯病菌的病，是一种非常疼的病菌。但是我一直继续按照日程进行工作，全世界出差。我在电梯间摔倒，从楼梯上滚下来，撞到墙壁上面。我有很多奇妙的经历。但是，嗯，现在我进行了双眼角膜移植手术。他们说那个手术不可能成功。但是我的老公，史蒂夫，史蒂夫.米歇尔，他是一个非常出色的男人。他谷歌了很多信息，然后找到了一个办法。我好像是好像是，40%的成功率（奥普拉：角膜移植？）是的。哦，太感谢了。然后，人们问我，“你会有，你有过排异反应么？” 我说，“哦，我从来没有排斥过移植过来的角膜，它们可以排斥我，但是我绝对不会想要去排斥它们。但是它们拥有排斥我的权利，每个事物都有自己生存的权利。”

Oprah: So ,you say in the beginning of loving what is, that it is our thoughts about a given situation that causes a suffering. When we label the situation, and we.. (Katie: The thoughts we were believing.)  The thoughts that we were believing about the situation. And that it is our resistance to whatever the moment is. Now I actually was reading your book and had gotten uh, I was reading your book on Thursday night, and then had to do something all day Friday, and that evening, Friday evening I stared to get really really really sick. I mean all of a sudden, my body are ache and my bone , I was sore achy inside myself so much so I didn't even think I was gona make it home, you know, make it to bed, and there was only my dogs of the house with me and security.

奥普拉：所以，你在《一念之转》这本书的最开始提到，是我们关于一个既定事实的那些想法，让我们感到痛苦。当我们给这个事实贴上标签的时候，我们。。（凯蒂：那些我们所相信的想法），那些我们关于这个既定事实的想法。那是我们对当下所发生的事实的抗拒让我们感到痛苦。现在，我正在读你的书，嗯，我找到，，嗯。我周四晚上读了你的书，然后周五忙了一整天的工作。然后，就在那个晚上，周五的晚上我突然开始觉得非常非常不舒服。我意思是说突然就变得不舒服了，浑身酸痛，非常难受，全身极度难受，以至于我甚至想我可能回不了家了，你知道我连床都快爬不上去了。那时候只有我几只小狗陪我，以及看管物业的保安。

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-6 17:36
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Oprah: I remember in the middle of the night, being too tired to wake up to even I was like groggy and wanted to ask security to bring some water, but too tired to reach for the phone, even say bring me some water. So I was really sick.(Katie:mm-hmm). And suddenly I had the thought after reading your book, I'm gonna stop resisting being sick, I'm gonna to let it, I'm gonna, , because I'm trying not to be sick. (Katie:Yes). I mean, in the middle of sick, I "uh, I can't believe I was dadadada." I suddenly had the thought or feeling that I'm gonna release my resistance to being sick, I'm going to embrace it.  (Katie:Yes). I said I'm going to embrace，it makes me want to cry, thinking about it. I said I'm going to embrace it, (Katie:Yes), and see what happens. I fell asleep and I woke up miraculous security.

奥普拉：我记得在半夜的时候，我极度疲惫地醒过来，摇摇晃晃地、跌跌撞撞地想要叫保安给我送一些水过来。但是我太难受了，甚至都够不着电话，更别说拨打电话让别人给我拿水了。所以，我真的病的很严重。（凯蒂：嗯。）然后，我突然想起刚读过的你那本《一念之转》里面的一些启示。我想，我要放弃防卫，放弃抵抗生病这回事，随它去吧。我要，嗯，因为我当时一直努力不想让自己生病。（凯蒂：是的。）我的意思是，在生病的过程中我还在一直抵抗自己生病的这个事实，我当时想着。“”哦，天，我不相信我怎么会这样，我不可以生病。。。巴拉巴拉巴拉“。然后，我突然有了那个想法，或者说感受到那个想法，即，我要放下对生病这个事实的抵抗，我要拥抱这个事实。（凯蒂：是的。）哦，我刚才我说要拥抱生病这个事实的时候，想起这个让我有点想哭。我说我要拥抱这个事实。（凯蒂：是的。）我想看看接下来会发生什么事情。结果，我睡着了，然后第二天早上奇迹一般地醒过来，完全康复了。

Katie: It's, it is amazing to love what is. See, that's the description .

凯蒂：嗯，是什么就爱什么是非常美妙的。看吧，那就是关于这样做的一个描述。

Oprah: I wouldn't have thought , I would have been able to get out of bed in the next three days. I think how am I gonna get to work, how am I gonna to fly back across country...

奥普拉：我当时根本没想到在接下来的三天里，我还能起得来床。我想的是，我怎么去工作啊，我怎么坐飞机回家啊。

Katie: Oh, I have a goose bumps,you, you stopped arguing with reality.

凯蒂：哦，你的故事让我非常感动，你，嗯，你停止了与事实的抗辩。

Oprah: I stopped fighting it.

奥普拉：是的，我停止了与它对抗。

Katie: It's a magical world. And then if you get still and you go back and you look at how your body really was, and you look back, was that pain? was it really pain? Or was it , was it something else?(Oprah: I don't know. I don't know what it was). That was quite pleasant. (Oprah: Yeah,absolutely!). Yeah, it's like what we are calling sadness, or, or, or, you know, sadness, I invite people to question that. Is it sadness or is it love. And to get really still, are those feelings, sadness? Or are they love？like when a loved one dies. And to get really honest about it, maybe it's love ,maybe it's not sadness.

凯蒂：那是一个奇妙的世界。然后，如果你静下来，再回头看那个事情，去看看当时你身体的真实状况，你静静地回看，那是疼痛么？那真的是疼痛么？或者。。或者那是什么别的东西？（奥普拉：我不知道，我不知道，我根本不知道那是怎么回事。）那是非常有趣的。（奥普拉：是啊，绝对的。）是啊，那就像是我们称呼悲伤一样，或者，或者，或者，你知道，悲伤。我邀请人们去质疑这个情绪。那是悲伤么？还是说那是爱？真的要完全地静静地去体会和质询那些情绪，它们是悲伤？还是爱？就像是说一个亲人死了的时候，我们所体会到的情绪。真的要诚实地去面对内心的质询，或许那是爱，或许那并不是悲伤。

---

作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-6 17:38
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Oprah: Well, I am gonna cry because I lost my dog Sophie and uh She'd been with 13 years, everyday, everyday,everayday, everywhere, and I was sitting alone this weekend just thinking about her, and I just passed a picture of her on the wall,and I had that ,that feeling , I mean, this is ,you know ,trying to be in touch with my really feeling ,with my really feeling.(Katie: Yes.) I miss her physical body,(Katie: Yes.) , because she slept on the bed every night . But what I am really feeling is a deep deep love for her.(Katie: Yes.) A deep love for her.(Katie: Yeah.). And wondering if I was able, this is the same thing ，I know everybody feels， when they lose a loved one ,and I would say Sophie is the closest, I was gonna say closest person , closest entity that I've lost.(Katie: Yeah.) You know, as an adult.

奥普拉：哦，这让我想到了我死去的小狗苏菲。13年来，它每天都和待在我在一起，每天每天每天，任何地方几乎都和我在一起。这个周末，我独自一个人呆着的时候，想起了她，当时我只是路过走廊看到了挂在墙壁上的它的照片，我体会到了你刚才说的那种感受。你知道，我努力想要触碰我自己的真实感受。（凯蒂：是的）。我想念它毛茸茸的身体。（凯蒂：是的）。因为它活着的时候每天都睡在我的床边。但是，我刚才体会到的，真的是一种对它深深的，深深的爱。（凯蒂：是的）。深深的爱。（凯蒂：是的）。然后，我一直在想，感受是一样，或许每个人在失去一个心爱的人的时候都会有的感受。我想说苏菲是我最亲密的，嗯，我想说最亲密的人，或者说我失去了我最亲密的宝贝。（凯蒂：是的。你知道，我把它当做一个朋友。

Oprah: And so I questioned whether or not .You know I did everything for this little dog. She's had a chemotherapy and two surgeries ,and the day she was getting another shunt for her neck, for her kidneys, and so forh, so i did everything for her. Now, I question was I fully present for her ?(Katie: Yeah.  It's like were you doing everything for her, to her？) I did everything for her..(Katie:Wasn't it for you?) Yeah,mm-hmm.(Katie: You know. was it more for you than Sophie , and It's just an interesting thing to look at.) Yeah.

奥普拉：所以，我质询了那种感受。你知道，我为这只小狗倾尽了全力。给它进行了化疗，动了两次手术，后来还切了喉管，靠引流喂食，等等。我几乎为她做了所有这些事情。现在，我在质询自己的是，我是否真的活在了那个当下？（凯蒂：是的。就好像你是“为她”做了一切，还是你“对她”做了一切？）我为她做了一切。（凯蒂：难道没有为了你自己么？）是的，嗯。。。（凯蒂：你知道，是不是更为了你自己多一些呢？嗯，这是一件有趣的事情，你可以去考察一下。）好吧。

Katie: But you know, as we, as we , as you discussed Sophie, I can see her , I don'e een know what kind of dog she was in the end. And I think I do. But I mean, yeah. But uh,as we think of her, don't you see her? I see her and I never met her. But you see her .So she died, is it  true? I mean , they don‘t die   ,and every time this this visit, they come to our mind, like Sophie comes to your mind, she hits your mind and then love happens. (Oprah: Right.). And we name it sadness. But all of those years, 13 being with Sophie are there.(Oprah: Are there.)And , and uh like you did with your sickness, if you allow  it, she never leaves.(Oprah: mm-hmm.) and that kind of love, you know. I like to say no one can leave me, they don't have that power. It's here, it's here in your mind. (Oprah: mm) And it hit your heart.

凯蒂：但是，你知道。就在我们，嗯，就在你刚才讨论苏菲的时候，我能够看见它。我甚至根本都不知道她是哪种类型的小狗。我想我确实看见它了。但是我的意思是，好吧。但是，就在我们想起它的时候，你没有看见她么？我看见她了，但是我之前从没见过它。但是，你确实看见她了，不是么？所以，它死了，这是真的么？我的意思是说，她们没有死。每一次，每一次这些画面在头脑中到访的时候，它们来到我们的头脑中，就像是苏菲进入你的脑海一样，它敲打你的心，而爱会油然而生。（奥普拉：是的）。我们将这种感受称之为悲伤。但是所有过去的那些时光，13年来你有苏菲陪伴的时光都在那儿啊！（奥普拉：是在那儿）。所以，就像你对你的疾病所做的那样，如果你允许她进入，她是永远都不会离开的。（奥普拉：嗯。。）。以及那个爱永远都不会离开。我喜欢说，没有人能够离开我，他们没有那个能力。它在你这儿，在你的心中。（奥普拉：嗯）。它会敲击你的心。

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-6 17:39
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Oprah: Right, correct, correct, correct. all right, so let's see how this work with, let's see how the work works for an issue that has been troubling me for as long as I can remember.Actually I can remeber how long it's has been troubling me. My weight. You said that you were, because when I was reading this, I was saying, Oh, well , I need to write a book for how this work for a weight. I thought I had beat the weight game. I thought it was over  for me. and that I had it under control . And um, last year, it is true that I had with a doctor said,was,he said it was a thyroid issue. And I went to the doctor,and the doctor said to me,"Well, you're going to gain weight. You must learn to embrace hunger because you're going to gain weight." I couldn't believe this was happening to me.Who's had a quote weight issue in my whole life. And now I will go to the doctor who says you have an issue now, that's actually gonna make you gain weight. What I now think is, "I didn't have to gain weight!" But what I did iwas I believe the doctor.(Katie:Yes). I believe the doctors, So I stopped working out as much .(Katie:Yeah).I believe the doctor, so I just  (Katie:Yeah) sort of eating..not junking food.

奥普拉：对的，完全正确，是这么回事。好的，下面让我们看看这个功课怎么样解决，嗯，让我们来看看功课怎么来解决一个具体的问题，自打我有记忆开始，我就有了这个困扰。好吧，实际上我能够算出这个问题困扰了我多长时间，那就是我的体重问题。你说过，你。。嗯因为当我在读这本《一念之转》的时候，我对自己说，哦，天，我需要写本怎么用功课来减肥的书。我曾经以为我已经击败了肥胖的问题，我以为体重问题不会再找上我，我以为我已经完全掌控了自己的体重问题。嗯，但是去年，真的哦。我的医生和我说，他说我有甲状腺的问题，医生对我说，“哦，我认为你应该减肥了。你必须学会拥抱饥饿，因为你需要开始减重。” 我几乎不敢相信这怎么会发生在我的身上，我怎么会整个人生都被贴上肥胖的标签呢？现在我想要去找找那个医生，那个说我有体重问题、应该减肥的医生。我现在所想的是，“我根本不想减肥啊！” 。虽然我这么想，但是我所做的却是相信了医生的话。（凯蒂：是的）。我相信了医生的话，所以大大地缩减了我的工作量。（凯蒂：是的）。我相信了医生的话，所以我不吃那些垃圾食品了。（凯蒂：是的）。

Katie: Cause and effect. You believe and then the effect happens.

凯蒂：因和果。因为你相信了，所以你去做，这就是结果。

Oprah: Right. Okay, So in terms of the work, I am uh, I am sick of the struggle with with weight, I'm sick of it, I believe that is true.

奥普拉：对的。好吧。所以就功课来说，我，我，我受够了与体重作斗争。我受够了，我相信这是真的，我受够了。

Katie：Okay, So you're sick of weight being an issue in your life, can you absolutely know that it's true? that you're sick of it. You say you are, and can you absolutely know that it's true that you are sick of it.

凯蒂：好的。所以你受够了体重成为你生命中的一个问题，你能百分百确定这是真的么？你真的受够了么？你说你受够了，你能百分百确定你受够了么？

Oprah: Ah-ha.

奥普拉：是的。

Katie：Okay.（Oprah:Yes）. So  what happens to you when you think the thought I, I'm sick of the struggle in my life.

凯蒂：好的。(奥普拉：是的)。所以，当你想到那个念头，我受够了一生都在和体重抗争，想到这个念头的时候，发生了什么。

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-6 17:40
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Oprah: what happens to me.. mm. I get frustrated, I have to, I get work, you know, I'm thinking about what I should ear of shouldn't eat, what I ate yesterday, what I shouldn't eaten yesterday,（Katie:Yes）,what I'm gonna eat look tomorrow.You know, three weeks from now I have something coming up with the party, Maya Angelous, will I eat there, will I drink there, will I have no champagne, will I emilate champagne? You know（Katie:Yeah),that's what I think.

奥普拉：发生了什么？嗯。我会变得很紧张，我不得不做点什么，你知道。我想到我应该吃什么，我不应该吃什么，我昨天吃了什么，我昨天是不是吃了不应该吃的。（凯蒂：嗯）。我想我明天要吃什么呢？你知道，三个礼拜以后我和玛雅.安吉路斯有个聚会，我在聚会上面要不要吃东西呢？要不要喝酒呢？我不能喝香槟了，或者干脆我就戒了香槟算了。。。。你知道（凯蒂：嗯）。那就是我想到的。

Katie: So what you think about your body, Oprah?

凯蒂：所以，你怎么看待自己的身材，奥普拉？

Oprah: What I think of it?

奥普拉：我怎么看？

Katie: Yeah, what do you think of it, how do you see it? ah，the stress why's. the stressful thought.

凯蒂：是的，你怎么想，你怎么看待自己的身体？嗯，就是为什么你会觉得身体是个压力。那些压力的念头是什么。

Oprah：I wish it were, I wish it were a size 10, and not a size 14.

奥普拉：我希望它，我希望它是10码，而不是14码。

Katie： Okay，so you think your body is too large. (Oprah: yes.)Okay, so is it true? Your body is too large? (Oprah: True for whom?) For you. (Oprah:Is it true fo me?)For you. Because that's all you're ever going to have to deal with.

凯蒂：好吧。你认为你的身材太胖了。（奥普拉：是的）好的。所以，那是真的么？你的身材太胖了？（奥普拉：对谁来说是真的呢？）对你。（奥普拉：对我来说是真的么?）是的，对你。因为你所有要面对的只有你自己而已。

Oprah: That's right.Cuz it's just my business.

奥普拉：你说的对，因为这是我的事儿。

Katie: There are people who weight less than you do, who think they're obese, people weigh a lot more than you do, they think they're..(Oprah:Is it true for me that I think my body is too large? ) is too large. (Oprah: Yeah,it is.) Okay.so your body is too large,. (Oprah:mm-hmm).Can you absolutely know that it's true, tht your body is too large?

凯蒂：可能会有些体重比你轻的人，认为自己是肥胖的；也可能会有些体重比你重的人，认为自己是..(奥普拉：我认为我的身体太胖了，这是真的么？嗯。。)真的么？（奥普拉：是的，是真的。）。好的，所以，你的身体太胖了。。（奥普拉：嗯。。）你能百分百确定那是真的么？你的身体太胖了？

Oprah: For me? Well, for my mind, it is. for my mind, it is.

奥普拉：对我来说么？好吧，我的头脑是这么认为的，是的，太胖了。对我的头脑而言，身体太胖了。

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-6 17:41
版权归作者所有，任何形式转载请联系作者。
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Katie: Your body is too large, can you absolutely know that, that's true?

凯蒂：你的身体太胖了，你能百分百确定那是真的么？

Oprah: Well, I can't absolutely know that it's true,(Katie：Okay，so) because obviously it's serving a purpose.

奥普拉：好吧，我不能百分百确定那是真的。（凯蒂：好的，所以）。因为很明显它能够为我服务。

Katie: So, I invite you to commit to a Yes or a No.Cuz the work stops working the moment you stop answer the questions. What happens is the mind wants you to defend what you're believing, it wants to justify what you're believing. And, the work ,when you answer the questions  ,this cut through it. So commit to a Yes or a No.(Oprah: Yes or No?) ah-huh.

凯蒂：所以，我邀请你只是回答一个“是”或者“不是”，因为当你停止回答问题的时候，功课就已经不起作用了。因为那时候，你的头脑就开始防卫你所相信的，它想要证明你所相信的。而，功课，也就是你回答的这些问题，它可以直接切开这些混乱的思绪直指真相。所以让自己只是回答一个“是”或者“不是”。（奥普拉：是，还是不是呢？）啊哈。

Oprah: Too large for me, is the question?

奥普拉：这个身体对我来说太胖了，是这个问题吧？

Katie: Can you absolutely know that your body is too large?

凯蒂：你能百分百确定你的身体太胖了么？

Oprah:.....No.

奥普拉：嗯。。。不能。

Katie：Oh, you're amazing.

凯蒂：哦，你真令人着迷。

Oprah: You know the reason why? I can't , I can't be absolutely true that my body is too large because it is. It is, and it's working for me, and you know, it functioning. so I can't know that it absolutely is true.

奥普拉：你知道理由是什么么？我不能，我不能百分百确定我的身体太胖了，因为它就是这样的。它就是这样的，它对我来说是好用的。你知道，它各方面的功能都没有问题。所以我不能百分百确定那是真的。

Katie: Yeah, and not only that when..

凯蒂：是的，而且还不只那样。

Oprah: Well，I like it to be different? Yes, but that's not the question you ask.

奥普拉：但是，我确实想要变得不同啊。是的，但是那并不是你的问题。

Katie: No，that is different. It's like, who needs God when I have my opinion.(Oprah:mm-hmm)You know, I ~know my body is too large. and and it's it is arguing with reality,and it's it's a little strange for now. Let's move to the third one. How do you react, what happens to your life when you believe this thought? (Oprah: I..) Such a huge question.（Oprah: Yeah).And you answer for millions and millions  and millions and millions people going through this.

凯蒂：是的，这是不同的。那就像是说，当我已经打定主意的时候，谁还要听老天爷的意见呢。（奥普拉：嗯-嗯）你知道，我~~知道我的身材太胖了！那是，那是在与事实抗辩。现在已经有点儿奇怪了。让我们接着下面第三个问题。当你相信这个念头的时候，你有何反应，你的生活中发生了什么事？（奥普拉： 我。。）多么令人震动的一个问题啊。此刻，你正在替百万个、千万个、亿万个人穿越这个问题。

Oprah：Okay, I feel frustrated, um, you know, anxiety, I get, not， you know, anxious, not depressed because I feel um not good about myself, I feel like I should be doing better. And I should be doing better.

奥普拉：好吧，我感到很沮丧，嗯，你知道，紧张，我觉得，不，你知道，紧张，不是抑郁。但是我觉得自己感觉不太好，我觉得我应该做的更好。我应该更好才对。

Katie: And your mind shows you images. It compares you to, to a size 10, or a size 8. (Oprah:Yeah.). and you watch other people and you compare your body. That's how the mind works.(Oprah:Right.).And you believe your thought "my body is too large." (Oprah:I'm so sick of that, I'm so sick of that.) And you becomes sick of it. And then also how do we react，when you believe the thought our bodies are too large.(Oprah:We eat more.). We actually, we eat more. We become hopeless.(Oprah:That's right. Why we eat more? Cuz we want to feel better , not the fact of your bodies ) We're at war with this innocent(body).

凯蒂：然后你的头脑会显现出很多图像。它将你与另一个10码的身材、或者8码的身材的你进行对比。（奥普拉：是的）。然后，你会看到其他的人，然后你会将自己与他们比较身材。那就是头脑的运作形式。（奥普拉：对的）。于是，你相信了你的念头 “我的身体太胖了”。（奥普拉：我受够了，我受够了那个）。然后，你会觉得自己快受够了。然后，当我们相信了这个念头 “我们的身材太胖了”，我们会做什么？我们，我们实际上，，（奥普拉：我们吃得更多了。。），我们吃得更多了。我们觉得没有希望了。（奥普拉：知道为什么我们吃得更多了么？因为我们想感觉好点儿，不想面对身体的现实。。）于是，我们与这个无辜的身体开战。

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-6 17:43


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Oprah: Yes.I'm talking to Byron Katie here, a woman who truly loves what is, author of loving what is, and she's working doing the working with me here literally.

奥普拉：是的。我正在访谈拜伦.凯蒂, 一个真正热爱现实的女人，《一念之转》的作者。实际上，她现在正在与我一起做功课。

Katie：So we see how we react when you believe the thought, and we even become bitter and some of us do become depressed. And who would you be? The fourth question, who would you be without the thought, (Oprah: I.. ) my body is too large?

凯蒂：所以，我们来看看当你相信了那个想法的时候，我们甚至更难受了，有些人会变得抑郁。第四个问题，没有那个想法的时候，你是谁？没有“我的身体太胖了”这个想法？（奥普拉：呃。。）

Oprah: i would be so joyful.(Katie: Yeah).I would be able to through my closet and get dressed in the morning, without thinking about what's gonna fit instead of.(katie: Yeah). You know.(Katie: Yeah, Imagine..)I would just move through the life and I wouldn't have this as an issue. I could let this go and ...

奥普拉：我将会变得很快乐啊，（凯蒂：是啊）。我会在早上穿过我的试衣间，找出一件衣服穿好，而不用考虑哪件衣服才适合我。（凯蒂：是啊）你知道。（凯蒂：是的，继续想象）。我会，我会顺利的生活，不会把身体看成一个问题。我会不在乎身材的问题，嗯。。。

Katie: And isn't that the very thing you want?

凯蒂：难道那不正是你想要的东西么？

Oprah: And I could give so much more energy to so many other things..

奥普拉：我会分出更多的精力，能做更多的事情。

Katie: And isn't that what you think you're gonna have when you are at the size 10,at the size 8?(Oprah:Yes!) I mean. I can skip all of that and have it from here, right here, right now.(Oprah:How am I gonna do that.)It's just simple. (Oprah:My body ,my body was too large..)That's ok.We are not there yet. So just to notice that ,with the thought，a lot of stress, without the thought..happy. (Oprah: What if I let go of that thought? I would be so much happier.) Okay. now I'm not asking you to let go off the thought.(Oprah:You're not.)I'm not even asking you to change it, I'm not asking anything, just your answers. So what we've learned  from you is, with the thoughts, stress and everything else that ,that we discussed(Oprah: Right.),without the thought,happiness,(Oprah: Right.).Joy, your mind not on the body.(Oprah: Right.)

凯蒂：难道，那不正是当你拥有10码或者8码的身材时，想要的东西么？（奥普拉：是啊。）我的意思是说，我可以跳过身体这个困扰，直接拥有这种状态，就在此时此地。（奥普拉：那我该怎么做呢？）很简单。（奥普拉：我的身材，我的身材太胖了啊。。）那没有关系。我们还没进行到那一段。所以，现在我们只需要注意到，当你相信了那个念头时，很多的压力涌上心头；没有那个念头时，快乐。（奥普拉：如果我放下这个念头呢？我就会变得更加快乐？）嗯，现在我并没有叫你放下那个念头。（奥普拉：你确实没有。）我甚至都没有叫你改变那个念头，我什么都没有要求，我只是要你的回答而已。所以，我从你这里了解到，相信了那些念头，就会充满压力以及一系列偏差的行为，我们刚才讨论过的。（奥普拉：是的）。而没有那个念头的时候，快乐，（奥普拉：是的），喜悦，你的心念不再被束缚在身材上面。（奥普拉：是的）。

Katie：Okay，so with the thought , stress, without the thought, no stress. So, how can the body be the problem?

凯蒂：好，所以有了那个念头，压力；没有那个念头，快乐。所以，身体怎么可能成为问题呢？

Oprah: My body is not the problem, it's what I about it. (Katie:Okay.) It's the problem

奥普拉：所以，我的身体不是问题，是我对它的看法才是问题。（凯蒂：是的）。那才是问题。

Katie：Okay, so let's go back to an example.Give me an example of the turnaround,"my body is not too large."

凯蒂：好的，那么让我回过头找个例子，给我一个实例证明反转的念头是真的，即 “我的身材不算太胖”。

Oprah：My body is not too large because it functions for me and allows me to be able to get up and move through life everyday, and speak to the world from a , from a sacred space. My body is not too large.

奥普拉：我的身材不算太胖，因为它对我来说非常有用，每天它都能让我起床，走动，说话，从我的智慧中说出想要说的话语。嗯，我的身材不算太胖。

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-6 17:45
版权归作者所有，任何形式转载请联系作者。
作者：starinheart（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/doubanapp/dispatch?uri=/note/664378910/

Katie：It's not too large to be yours. It's too large to be hers, It's not large enough to be his or hers. This is right here right now,it is the perfect weight ,the perfect size to be you. It doesn't mean that you're not gonna be thinner next week.(Oprah:Okay). I only have one thing to deal with , what am I going to put in my mouth right here right now.(Oprah:mm-hmm). That's it. Not forever, just in this moment , and then I notice I eat what I eat, or I don't, and I'm just noticing noticing noticing.(Oprah:Yeah,be more conscious). And until then, I am the perfect size to be me. Somebody's got to be  you, Oprah. No else could do it. You are the one. And this is what it takes, but only right here right now.  

凯蒂: 它对你来说不算太胖。或许它对于她来说太胖了，或许对于他或她来说还不够胖。这是个此时此地的问题，它对于你是完美的体重，完美的尺码。但这并不是说你下周不会变瘦。（奥普拉：好的）。我只是说现在只有一件事需要关注，那就是我此时此地要吃入口中的是什么。（奥普拉：嗯）。就这么简单。不是说永远，而是就在这一刻，你所入口的是什么。然后，我会注意我吃了什么，或者我没吃什么，我只是留心地观察，观察，观察。（奥普拉：是的，更加清醒）。而在此之前，我的身材是完美的。世间总有一个人要成为奥普拉。没有其他任何一个其他人可以做奥普拉，因为你才是那个人。这就是你身材所承载的意义，成为此时此地的那个你。

Oprah: When you learn to do the inquiry of the work, which are the four questions," is it true?" "is it really true?(Katie:mm-hmm). The third one， I forgot...

奥普拉：当你学会功课的质询之后，即四个问题，“这是真的么？”，“那真的真的是真的么？”（凯蒂：嗯）第三个问题，哦我忘了。。

Katie: How do you react ,what happens to your life ,your entire life when you believe that thought？（Oprah：And the last one?）Who would you be without that thought.(Oprah:and then you turn it around) And then you turn it around.

凯蒂：当你相信那个念头的时候，你有何反应，你的生活中发生了什么。（奥普拉：最后一个问题？）没有那个念头你是谁？（奥普拉：然后，接着将念头反转。）接着，将念头反转。

Oprah: If you apply that to everything in your life..

奥普拉：如果你将功课应用在生活中的每一件事情中的时候。。

Katie: Then you wake up , you wake up to reality , you wake up . You know, this is about the end of suffering. You know, Oprah, if you , if,if heaven were the most marvelous marvelous place, everyone wants to go to heaven, or people that do and believe in it. If you died, and went to heaven where everything was perfect.There was no suffering, there was no sorrow ,there was no...(Oprah:Right) no misery.If you died and went to heaven and you took what you're believing  to heaven with you, where would you be? On earth! (Oprah: On earth.)

凯蒂：那么你就会觉醒，你就会觉醒于现实，你会觉醒过来。你知道，这是对痛苦的终结。你知道，奥普拉，如果你，如果天堂是最最美好的地方，每个人都想去天堂，或者对那些想去天堂和相信有天堂的人而言。如果你死了，去到了那个事事都完美的天堂。那里没有痛苦，没有悲伤，没有，，，嗯（奥普拉：对的），没有苦难。如果你死后去了天堂，然后带着所有那些你此刻所相信的念头去了天堂，那么你在哪儿？还是在地球上啊！（奥普拉：在地球上）。

Katie: So I woke up and I discovered heaven,I'm in heaven and I am inviting everyone to it. And and I can't take you there. But people who answer these four questions and a turnaround and sit and get very still ,can take them there, if their mind is just open to it.

凯蒂：所以我醒来了，我发现了天堂，我就在天堂，同时我邀请所有人来到这里。可是，可是我不能够把你带到那里。但是，那些能够回答这四个问题和一个反转的那些人们，能够真的静下心来回答问题的人们，如果他们的头脑和心足够开放的话，就可以将自己带到那里。

Oprah: The four queations and  loving what is , Byron Katie. It's been a joy  having you here. I mean really. All right , My body is fine the way it is.(Katie: In the moment.)  In this moment ,right now.

奥普拉：四个问题和一念之转，拜伦.凯蒂, 非常高兴能在这里访谈你，我意思是真的很高兴见到你。好吧，我的身体就是它该有的样子。（凯蒂：在这一刻）对，在这一刻，它在这一刻就是它该有的样子。

Katie: Arguing with it and you miss the beauty, miss the beauty of you and that certainly isn't like you.

凯蒂：与它抗辩，你会错过你自己本有的美丽，错过你自己的美丽，而那真的不是你的作风。

Oprah: Thank you.

奥普拉：谢谢。

【第二部分完，待续】 果冻.Angela  2018-4-6

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-6 17:46
ok，第二部分:）

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作者: amy    时间: 2018-4-6 22:38
拜伦.凯蒂：Oprah与Byron Kaite的访谈


视频地址：http://new-play.tudou.com/v/537454843.html?resourceId=0_06_02_99

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-7 08:39

amy 发表于 2018-4-6 22:38
拜伦.凯蒂：Oprah与Byron Kaite的访谈

对，非常好的视频，就是这个视频。值得反复看。：）

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-7 08:40

amy 发表于 2018-4-6 22:38
拜伦.凯蒂：Oprah与Byron Kaite的访谈

对，就是这个。：）

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-9 17:08
奥普拉（Oprah）对凯蒂（Katie）的专访3完结篇（中英版-果冻）
版权归作者所有，任何形式转载请联系作者。
作者：starinheart（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/note/664856884/

拜伦.凯蒂：Oprah与Byron Kaite的访谈
视频地址：http://new-play.tudou.com/v/537454843.html?resourceId=0_06_02_99

果冻叨叨：最后一部分完结篇。 可以结合采访视频看英文，非常好。呵呵。

我常常想，未来或许等人工智能翻译发达了，就可以不用人工翻译了。不过今天我又想了一下，或许很难。因为这貌似还是个技术活。

同样的语言，不同的人有不同的理解，而机器或许没有那么灵活，呵呵。胡思乱想而已，未来的事儿谁知道呢，我的翻译只是我的体会与理解。

所以建议大家去看英文的原音视频，去聆听智者的声音、语调、情感、表现。那才是一个“全景秀”！感谢现代的科技发展，能够给与我们这样的一个机会，能够全真重现过去某个时段智者的话语与场景，这要比只看书来得丰富得多的多。

老公和凤宝昨天建议我不要再强烈推荐The work 给他们了，哈哈。说实话，我已经收敛了很多，因为这实在是太珍宝的东西了，哈哈。话说回来，他们的意见也很对，毕竟甲之蜜糖，乙之砒霜。或许我这个太好的心失衡了，所以修为不够啊。任何人与事都是平衡平等的，balance。所以，放下认为the work也是对别人是至真至善的宝贝或许更加恰当，毕竟它只是对我自己而言，我怎么知道别人的路该怎么样走呢？呵呵。最开始的人生是失衡，然后求平衡；再然后，发现连平衡都是虚幻的，便回归到本初状态，是什么就是什么了。

哇塞，漫漫长路啊，好在有光 ~~ ：）

————

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-9 17:09
版权归作者所有，任何形式转载请联系作者。
作者：starinheart（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/note/664856884/

Oprah: Welcome to soul serious,Hi, I'm Oprah, I can't get enough of loving what is by Byron Katie so much so they've invited her continue our conversation, talking about loving what is. Welcome back, Byron Katie. One of the things you talk about in the book is the three businesses, your business, everybody else's business and God's business. Most people as you've said to us in previous weeks worried about their , other people's business..

奥普拉：欢迎来到心灵成长系列访谈。我是奥普拉，我对拜伦.凯蒂的《一念之转》这本书言犹未尽，所以他们邀请她继续我的直播间，继续聊一聊热爱真相这个话题。欢迎再回来，拜伦.凯蒂。你在这本书中提到的一个内容是，世界上只有三种事：你的事儿，别人的事儿，以及老天爷的事儿。大部分人，就像你之前说过的，都在担心他们的，嗯，都在担心其他人的事情。

Katie: Our daughters, our sons, hunger, war (果冻插话：哦，我的天，这段简直就是专门针对我说的，我发誓真不知道今天会翻译这段文字，哈哈哈哈~~)，you know, and it were mentally running the world and we're asleep to our own.

凯蒂：担心我们的女儿、儿子、饥饿、战争，，你知道，那是在头脑中管着全世界的事儿，而对自己的事儿却是不清醒的。

Oprah: Okay, now you described in loving what is, I Know I wrote it down for myself because I was so struck by this.. Now where my notes?Uh, when you were talking about your own daughter who was a, an addict by her own words,(Katie: Yeah). Can you tell us about that? When you're waiting up for your daughter..

奥普拉：好的。你在《一念之转》这本书中，嗯，我知道我在里面划了重点，因为我被这句话击中了，嗯，嗯，我的备注在哪儿呢？嗯，当你谈到你自己的女儿，以她自己的话说，她是个瘾君子。。（凯蒂：嗯）。你能说说这件事儿么？当你在等待你女儿的时候。。

Katie: Well, uh my amazing daughter was full of resentment , I was so full of self-hatred and I took it out on my children, and it was not an easy life for them living with a mother that was so bitter, and when I had this experience waking up to reality, and I came to understand that my daughter was into drug and alcohol, and I just bought her a brand-new gorgeous car, and here she is, I'm seeing this,you know, drinking alcoholically and driving, but she would leave and, and  I would wait up for. and Oprah, I would sit in a chair like this, and I would imagin her dead on the highway, I would imagine her raped , I would imagine her (Oprah: Right) killing other human beings, I would imagine her in the car rolled over out, we live in the desert, and rolled over with screaming for help and no one there.(Oprah: Right.) It was all in my imaginations, with all of the images, and all of the ..just as strong as they could possibly be.

凯蒂：好的，嗯，我那个非常可爱的女儿当时充满了愤恨，因为我曾经是个对自己充满怨怼的人，然后我把自己的这种情绪加注在我的孩子们身上，所以对他们来说，和这样一个恨意重重的妈妈生活在一起并不是一件容易的事情。后来，当我觉醒过来的时候，我开始理解到我的女儿已经开始酗酒和吸毒了，而我刚刚还给她买了一辆新潮的轿车。然后，你知道，我看见她喝醉酒开车出去了，然后我等着她回家。奥普拉，那时我坐在一个和这个差不多的椅子上，想象她可能死在高速公路上，想象她会被坏人欺凌，想象她（奥普拉：哦）撞死了其他人，想象她的车滚下山坡，要知道我们住在沙漠中，我想象她的轿车滚下山坡，大声呼救却没有人听见（奥普拉：哦）。那些都在我的脑海里，所有的这些场景，所有的，嗯，嗯，尽其所能地强烈地刺激着我。

Oprah: Living in your imagination，sitting there, imaging is she dead,is she gonna harm somebody else there.. That's when you were suffering? So. your imagination..

奥普拉：你活在你的想象中，坐在那里，想象着她死了，她可能会开车伤害到其他人。。那就是你在那一刻感觉到的痛苦吧？所以，你的想象。。

Katie: No. I've never suffered.(Oprah: You didn't suffered then?) I was sitting there, waiting to see what was true ,the difference between reality and fantasy.(Oprah:Okay). Until human beings get the difference between reality and sanity(果冻认为此处是凯蒂的口误，应该是fantasy), there's not going to be any peace.

凯蒂：不，我从没有感到过痛苦。（奥普拉：你那时候不觉得痛苦？）我只是坐在那儿，等着去看看到底什么才是真实的，等着去看清现实与幻想的区别。（奥普拉：好吧）。直到人们能够分清现实与幻想之间的区别，否则你不可能拥有平静。

Oprah: Now what you say in loving what is，is that，all the things you shared with here, "I'm a mother, I bought her the car, I'm responsible, I should take her car from her,she'll drive while she's drunk, she'll kill somebody, she'll crash into another car, as the thoughts appeared, and each one would be met with wordless thoughtless inquiry.(Katie:Yes).An inquiry instantly ,an inquiry means four questions.(Katie:Yes). Is it true? Brought me back to reality.Here is what was true, woman sitting in chair waiting for her beloved daughter.(Katie:Yes).Yes. That's the only thiing that was real.

奥普拉：你在《一念之转》的书中提到，你分享到，“我是一个母亲，我给她买了那辆新车，我是有责任的，我应该把车收回来，她酒驾，她会撞到别人，她会撞到其他车子。。。当这些念头升起的时候，每一个念头都相遇了一个无言无念的质询，（凯蒂：是的），即刻的质询，质询意味着那四个问题，（凯蒂：是的），那是真的么？等等。质询将我带到当下的现实。而这就是我当下的现实：一个坐在椅子上，等待心爱的女儿回家的妇人。（凯蒂：是的）。是的，那是那时候唯一真实的现实。

Katie: That's all that was real.

凯蒂：那就是全部的现实。

Oprah: And so for you who are listening, if you can seperate from your thoughts , be the awareness of your thoughts..(Kaitie: I said what is true ,and what is not.) What is true, and what is not?(Katie: Yeah) Well, how do we ,if we are ,you know , for most people as I said the beginning of this, is that most people are searching for ways to , you know, be in other people's business. And the biggest concerns are what other people are doing to them. How do you get away from, and I've had this issue that I'll share with you.

奥普拉：所以，对于正在收听这个节目的听众来说，如果你能够和你的念头分开，能够意识到你的念头存在。。（凯蒂：我是说能够看清什么是真的，什么不是。）能够看清什么是真的，什么不是？（凯蒂：是的）。好吧，我们怎么，嗯，你知道，如果我们，嗯，对于大多数人来说，就像是开头咱们提到的，大多数人都在伺机寻找，嗯，你知道，干涉其他人的事情。其中，他们最关心的就是别人怎么对待自己。那么，我们怎么能够摆脱这样的人呢？嗯，我想和你说说涉及到我的，有关这方面的事情。

Oprah：Ah, for me, and a lots of people I think have this issue, when you're the person in your family who makes the most money, or the person who's been,, (Katie:Yeah),,as successful, people have a tendency to look at you as a bank. (Katie: mm-hmm)..all right..

奥普拉： 嗯，对于我来说，我想很多人都有这个问题，就是说当你是全家赚钱最多的人的时候，或者是事业最成功的人的时候，（凯蒂：嗯），大家就会不自觉地把你当做公共提款银行。。。（凯蒂：嗯），就这样。。

Katie: I call it  honest Yeses and honest Noes. (Oprah: All right) So if someone said it's like, if I'm Oprah, for example, Hypothetically, what are those people , what are those people say? So just be all of them rolled into one, and let's have a conversation.

凯蒂：我称之为诚实的“是”与诚实的“不”。（奥普拉：好的）。所以，如果有人说，就像是，嗯，假如我是奥普拉，假设这样，那么那些人会对我说什么呢？他们会对我说什么呢？所以，你将所有那些人都混合为一个人，然后我们来一次这样的对话。

Oprah: Okay. All right, so I have, I would, I want , I want to borrow some money from you..

奥普拉：好的。好吧。我，我要，我想，我想跟你借点儿钱。

Katie: You know, thank you for asking ,and No.

凯蒂：你知道么，谢谢你向我提出这个请求，但是不行。

Oprah: Oh, well, that ended it.(Oprah burst out of  laugh..) That's not truely let it away, it goes.

奥普拉：哦，天，这就完事儿了。（奥普拉笑得不行），他们不可能这么好打发，，，。

Katie: let's have that conversation.

凯蒂：那我们接着聊。

Oprah: I can't believe ,I can't believe it all, that you have and you're helping other people all the time, that you won't give me $100,000.

奥普拉：我不敢相信，我真不敢相信，你有这么多钱，你一直都在帮助别人，但是你却不肯借给我10万美元。

Katie: I know it just sounds nuts,doesn't it? But it feels right to me.

凯蒂：我知道这听起来很傻，不是么？但是我心里觉得这样做是对的。

Oprah：Well , all I'm asking for is $100,000, and you have it ,you have it.

奥普拉：好吧，我只不过跟你借10万美元而已，而且你有，你有这些钱的。

Katie: That's true, I do,I do.

凯蒂：对，那是真的，我确实有这些钱，我确实有。

Oprah: And I want some of it.

奥普拉：我想跟你借点儿。

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-9 17:09
版权归作者所有，任何形式转载请联系作者。
作者：starinheart（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/note/664856884/

Katie: I know, I know.

凯蒂：我知道，我了解。

Oprah: Okay, nevermind the conversation.

奥普拉：好吧，那算了吧。

Oprah: Oh,my gosh.

奥普拉：哦，我的天啊。

Katie: See, it goes back to defense is the first act of war. (Oprah:Okay. It's because I'm defending it.) Yes, like "you don't have any right" ,(Oprah: like "you should, you should and you should) Yeah,(Oprah: I can't believe , I haven't,and dadada..) And that is war belongs on paper, it ,it , to question it, and then it just leaves love. But well, all I was experiencing is , is they're, they have a problem, I don't . I mean that's really kind.(Oprah:I was done what I thougnt was the kind thing.) Yeah,yeah（Oprah：And I should be enough.）Well ,it is enough. But if you continue to say yes, you train them to come back. (Oprah:Yes, absolutely.) It's like, ah, why do they do it? well ,you continue to say yes, and then guilt because you're not living out of your heart.(Oprah:mm-hmm).

凯蒂：看吧，这又回到了之前说过的那个问题，“防卫是战争的第一步”。（奥普拉：好吧，那是因为我有在防卫这件事。）是的，就像是说，“你没有那个权利。。”（奥普拉：就像是“你应该，你应该，你应该怎样怎样）是的。（奥普拉：就像是“我不相信你竟然。。”“我不能再。。”等等）那是属于纸面上的战争，去，去质询那些念头。然后，你会发现只剩下爱存在。但是，好吧，刚才在对话中我所感受到的，只是，嗯，他们有个问题，而我没有。我的意思是说，那才是真正的善良。（奥普拉：我在做我认为对的事情。）是的，就是这么回事。（奥普拉：我应该知道够了）。是的，已经够了。但是，如果你回答“可以”，那么你就等于在训练他们再来向你借钱。（奥普拉：是的，绝对是这样。）那就像是，嗯，为什么他们会这样做呢？好吧，那是因为你一直都在说“可以”。然后，你会觉得很内疚，因为你并没有活出你真心想要做的事情。（奥普拉：嗯。。）

Oprah：I love the example you used in the book ,the woman said ,"my husband , you know, I hate my husband." she said I don't have sex with my husband, my husband's a loser,my husband's all of these things. And in the beginning when you first started asking her, she said," Yes, he is a loser."

奥普拉：我喜欢你在书中的那个案例。有个女人说，“我老公，你知道，我讨厌我老公。”她说我不想和他进行夫妻生活，我的老公是个失败者，我的老公等等等等。你最开始问她“那是真的么”的时候，她回答说，“是的，他妥妥的是个失败者。”

Katie: Yeah, in her opinion, and the mind gives her all of the proof, all of the images compares him with other man etc. , and she turns her off. That's no kind of sex life.(Oprah: Right.)But if she thinks, if she questions it and turns it around, you know, and then to see what is as true or truer, not to change a person's mind, that's not what the work is about, but to realize what is as true or truer to the enlightened mind.

凯蒂：是的，她的念头是那样认为的，然后头脑提供给她所有的证据，所有的将她老公与其他男人比较的画面，等等。这些画面让她自己反胃，并再也不想和她老公进行夫妻生活了。（奥普拉：是的）但是，如果她想，如果她能够就那个念头进行质询，并反转念头的话。你知道，就是去看看那个反转的念头是不是也是一样真实的，或者是更真实的。这并不是要改变一个人的想法，那不是功课要做的事情，功课只是让你看到，对于一个清醒的头脑而言，哪些是真实的，或者说，是更真实的。

Oprah: Okay, she says even his breathing makes me ill, I want to leave him because of his breathing(Katie:yes.).Even  his breathing. Well, in some cases when somebody says, you know, my husband's a loser or they're taking advantage of me. Ah, this person doesn't respect me, or doesn't, you know, value me. Sometimes that is true!

奥普拉：好的。她说甚至连他的呼吸都让我难受，因为他喘气的方式，我都想要离开他了。（凯蒂：是的）。甚至他的呼吸。。好吧。在有些情况下，当某些人说到，你知道我的意思，当她们说我的丈夫是个失败者，或者我丈夫占了我的便宜。嗯，这个人不尊重我，或者你知道，不拿我当一回事。有时候，她们说的那种情况是真实的啊！

---

作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-9 17:09
版权归作者所有，任何形式转载请联系作者。
作者：starinheart（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/note/664856884/

Katie: Well, if I thought another person should value me, then I've got a trouble, I've got a problem. You know, people can't value me if they don't. Can you value someone when you don't? It's not possible.(Oprah: NO.) So we question what we're believing about that person.

凯蒂：好吧，如果我认为另一个人应该尊重我，那么我就有麻烦了，我就有问题了。你知道，如果人们不尊重的话，他们不可能尊重你啊。当你不尊重另一个人的时候，你能勉强自己尊重他么？那根本不可能。（奥普拉：是的，不可能）。所以我们可以将自己对那个人的想法进行质询。

Oprah: I can't say that there are people that in my family , I feel that there're people in my family who don't respect me. (Katie: Okay. Is that true？) Yeah! that is true. (Katie: Okay, so how do you react when you believe the thought, people in my family do not respect me?)

奥普拉: 我忍不住要说的就是我家里确实有些人，我觉得我家里就是有些人对我不尊重啊。（凯蒂：好吧，那是真的么？）是！当然了，那是真的。（凯蒂：好的。所以当你相信了那个想法的时候，相信了“我家里有人不尊重我”的这个想法的时候，你有何感受与反应呢？）

Oprah: It makes me angry, it makes me resent them, it makes me not want to talk to them, it makes me want to push back,(Katie: Yes.), it makes me not feel loving, it makes me want to avoid them,(Katie: Yes.),it makes me all of those things.

奥普拉: 那让我感到气愤，我恨他们，我不想和他们说话，我想反击回去，（凯蒂：是的），我感受不到爱，我想要回避他们，（凯蒂：是的），那个想法让我感受到所有这些。

Katie: Yes, and who would you be without the thought, my family doesn't respect me? (Oprah: Would I be?) Imagine yourself with them, imagine yourself..(Oprah: But I know, I've seen it too many times!) Well， I'm not asking you not to believe it. (Oprah: Okay.) I'm simply asking you just for a moment  (Oprah: Yeah.) to witness who would you be, (Oprah: Who would I be.), without the thought they don't respect me.

凯蒂：是的。然后，如果没有那个想法，我的家人不尊重我的那个想法，你有何感受与反应？（奥普拉：我会怎样？）想象你自己正在和他们在一起，想象你自己。。。（奥普拉：但是我知道，我见过他们不尊重我好多次了！）是的，我没有让你不相信这个想法。（奥普拉：好的。）。我只是请你只是暂时地（奥普拉：好的），嗯，只是去看一下，如果没有那个想法，没有那个“他们不尊重我”的想法时，你是谁。（奥普拉：我会怎样。）

Oprah: Okay, I would be different.

奥普拉：好吧，我会完全不同。

Katie: Yes. And they would be entitled to their own opinion. They could could respect who , I mean , they have a right to not respect or to respect people. (Oprah: Yeah.). And you would be aware of that, who would be without the thought they don't respect me. And so let's turn it around. (Oprah: Yes.). They don't respect me, what's the opposite?

凯蒂：是的。然后他们也拥有了保留自己意见的权利。他们可以去尊重，，嗯，我的意思是说，他们有权利去尊重或者不尊重别人。（奥普拉：是的）。然后，你也能够觉察到，没有那个“他们不尊重我”的这个想法的时候，你自己是谁。所以，让我们接着反转。（奥普拉：好的）。他们不尊重我，怎么反转呢？

Oprah: I don't respect them?

奥普拉：我不尊重他们？

Katie: Yes! Look how you're not respecting them. (Oprah: How so?!) . Well, if they don't respect you, you're not respecting it. How respectful is that? (Oprah: Huh?) Like if you don't respect me, (Oprah: Yes),and I don't respect that. If I don't respect that you don't respect me, (Oprah: then I'm not respecting you. Okay, I got it.epiphany, I got that)

凯蒂：是的！看看你是怎么不尊重他们的。（奥普拉：那怎么可能？！）好吧，如果他们不尊重你，而你不尊重他们对你的这个不尊重。你怎么能说自己尊重他们呢？（奥普拉：什么？）就像是，例如，如果你不尊重我，（奥普拉：好的），而我不尊重你的这个不尊重。如果我不尊重那个你不尊重我的事实，，，（奥普拉：那么，我就没有尊重你。好的，我明白了。我突然明白了）。

Oprah：So if you don't respect me, if you're gonna take advantage of me, and I ..

奥普拉：所以，如果你不尊重我，如果你要占我便宜，那么我。。

Katie:  How could？No one can take advantage of me.(Oprah: No one can?) That's not possible, (Oprah: Okay）. I mean when they came to you for money, who said yes? And who did you disrespect?

凯蒂：那怎么可能？没有人能够占我的便宜。（奥普拉：没有人能？）那是不可能的。（奥普拉：好吧。）。我的意思是说，当他们来向你要钱的时候，谁说的可以？你在不尊重谁？

Oprah: Oh, let's see who did I disrespect...

奥普拉：哦。。。让我们看看我在不尊重谁。。。。

---

作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-9 17:10
版权归作者所有，任何形式转载请联系作者。
作者：starinheart（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/note/664856884/

Katie: Yes. That would be you.(Oprah: Yeah, I just disrespect myself?). Yes. .(Oprah: I disrespect myself by giving them the money?) You didn't want to!  (Oprah: Okay, all right, all right.). It was disrespectful to both of you and.. (Oprah: To give them the money？) Yes, Because you didn't mean it.(Oprah:Okay.)

凯蒂：是的，你在不尊重你自己。（奥普拉：啊？我不尊重我？）。是的。（奥普拉：因为我给他们钱，所以我不尊重我？）是的，因为你根本不想给啊！（奥普拉: 是的，对的，对的。）那是对你们双方都不尊重。。（奥普拉：因为给他们钱？）是的，因为你并不是真的从心里想要给他钱。（奥普拉：是的）。

Katie: You're trying,, You know, we try to, we do it thinking our guilt is going to be less, but our resent bills.

凯蒂：你在试着，嗯，你知道，我们会努力，嗯，我们这么做是原以为这样做，我们的内疚会少一些，可是事实上却是憎恨为此买了单。

Oprah: No, we do it thinking not that feels guilt be less, well maybe we do. I havent thought about it enough. Maybe you do it thinking maybe this time will be, this will be it. So whether it's $50 or $500, (Katie: It doesn't matter.) It's just disrespectful ,(Katie: Yes),for me to give money to people,( Katie: Well, it's not honest for you.) ,when it's not honest for me.

奥普拉：不，我们做那个不是因为会少点儿内疚。我们这样做或许，嗯，我还没有完全想过这个问题。或许你这样做，是因为你认为这会是最后一次。所以不管是50元还是500元，，（凯蒂: 都没有关系的）。你是说我把钱给他们，就是对我自己的不尊重？（凯蒂：是的，因为那并不是出自你的真心），哦，当那个给予并不是出自我的真心真意的时候。

Katie: And  and to give the money to, you know, as though if I give them this, it'll be over. (Oprah:Yes.) You know, because that's, that is, that's ,you're living out of ,you're living a secret life and that's painful.(Oprah:Yeah.) You know, I would say "I'll give you this, and this is the last time I'm giving you money. "And, and see I couldn't even say that because it may not be. But I said, " I'm giving you this and it's my hope that is the last time you'll ask me for money again."(Oprah:Ah-huh). And , and then the next time they come back, if I still feel not to give them the money, then I say,"I care about you, and no." (Oprah: and no.)

凯蒂：并且把钱给出去，你知道，就像是暗地里说，如果我把钱给了他们，那么这事儿就永远结束了。（奥普拉：是的）。你知道，因为，那样的话，你就让自己活在了，活在了一个秘密的生活状态中，而那会是很痛苦的。（奥普拉：是的）。你知道，我会说，“我把这个钱给你，但是这是我最后一次给你钱。” 嗯。。。你看，我很难这么说，因为这或许不是最后一次。但是，我会说，“我把钱给你，我希望这是你最后一次向我要钱。”（奥普拉：啊哈。）然后，下一次他们再来的时候，如果我还是觉得不想给他们钱，那么我会说，“我很在乎你，但是，不行。”（奥普拉：不行。）。

Katie: See, No has two parts, we tell them the truth, and then the No. It's like I care about you, I see that that you may be in trouble, I really  hear that you need it, and I have to tell you No.

凯蒂：看，这个“不”含有两层意思，一个是我们说了真心话，第二个是不行。那就像是，我在乎你，我知道你或许陷入了麻烦，我听见你说你真的需要钱，但是我不得不拒绝你。

Oprah:Well, this is what's great about the inquiry ，because I , you know, hearing you talk this way, because in reading it, I was thinking, "Oh, gosh, you're just gonna walk around in peace with your cell phone, and tapes everybody all the time..”

奥普拉：好吧，这正是质询最棒的地方。因为，你知道么，当我最开始听你谈论质询的时候，因为我是在读你的书，所以我想，“哦，天，你应该是挎着手机，平静地四处行走，然后给每个人灌顶。”

Katie:mm-No.You know, what good is integrity if it doesn't bring clarity? And clarity, you know，the truth is is ,it's just, it's oh my goodness, it's the truth that set us free.

凯蒂：嗯，不是那么回事的。你知道，如果诚实不能够让人清醒，那它还有什么好处呢？而，清醒，嗯，你知道，嗯，真相，它，它，哦，天，只有真相能够让我们自由。

Oprah: Yes. Well let's get back to this whole, not take advantage of me. Because I think,  you know, I think you rang a bell there, there're a lot of people..

奥普拉：是的，好吧，让我们回头看看那个“没有人可以占我的便宜”。因为我在想，你知道，我在想你在这儿踩到了一个地雷，因为有很多人，，嗯。。

Katie: How can somepone take advantage of you? how is that possible?

凯蒂：别人怎么可能占我的便宜呢？那怎么可能发生呢？

Oprah: I don't know, I'm thinking about that.(Katie: Yeah.It's not.) It's there a lot of people who feel taken advantage of.(katie: There're definitely are. Victims, victims) People use, they feel that people, you know, use them. And there're a lot of , I had this for many years of my life, I can say I don't have this anymore,is this whole desire to please everybody, you tried to please,tried to please, (Katie: hopeless). Yes. That's a hopeless situation.(Katie: Yes). Yes.mm-hmm..(Katie: Yeah. well, it's never enough..) And you gave and gave, gave,gave., it's never enough.yes?

奥普拉：我不知道啊，我只是想到这儿了。（凯蒂：好吧，那不可能。）有很多人都觉得被别人占了便宜啊。（凯蒂：确实有些人这样想，受害者，受害者）。人们会利用，他们认为，你知道，他们认为别人利用了他们。也有很多人，嗯，我自己曾经很多年都是这样的，我能说我现在已经不这样了。你知道，就是非常希望能够取悦每个人，你一直努力地去取悦别人，努力去取悦。（凯蒂：没有希望的。）是的，那是完全没戏的。（凯蒂：是的）。是，嗯。（凯蒂：是的，那永远不可能满足。）然后，你给予、给予、给予，永远不可能满足别人，是吧?

Katie: mm-hmm.So how is it possible that someone could take advantage of me? You know, if someone took their fist and ,and like they didn't ,like something I said, they just hit me as hard as they could, and I knocked me clear against the wall. (Oprah: Yes.). I began to laugh. Why？（Oprah：Why would you that？） I'm not crazy any more, it's over, that is a state of grace.They hit me and it's over. Of couse I'm grateful，it's over. Now here is where the pain because,(Oprah: Gosh, you are different soul.), the mind begins to think "they shouldn't have done that, how dare they do that", (Oprah:That's right.),and the mind shows they hit over and over and over , it's like he hit me once, but I use in his name to suffer. I used that image hits of him hitting me, and all of a sudden, I'm a victim, and oh... and oh...and I get the world to agree...

凯蒂：嗯，是的。所以，别人怎么可能占我的便宜呢？你知道，如果有人用拳头，嗯，他们不，嗯，就像我说的，他们用尽全力打了我一拳，让我撞到了墙壁上。（奥普拉：是的）。我会开始大笑。为什么？（奥普拉：为什么呢？）我没有疯，我笑是因为那已经结束了，那是一种感恩的笑。他们打了我，那件事儿已经结束了，所以我非常感恩。那结束了。现在这儿，才是痛苦的所在，（奥普拉: 天，你和别人真的太不一样了），痛苦源于此刻的念头，头脑会开始想，“他们不应该打我，他们怎么敢打我”，（奥普拉：是的），然后念头开始一遍遍地展示他们打我的那个画面，那就像是说他打了我一次，但是我以他的名义让自己痛苦，我利用他打我的那个画面来打击自己，突然之间，我就变成了一个受害者，接着是，哦。。。哦。。天啊。。。我会让全世界都同意。。。

Oprah: And you blow in your mind, he hit me， he hit me， he hit me ...

奥普拉：然后，你不断地打击自己，他打了我，他打了我，他打了我。。

Katie: And I get the world to agree that this is a terrible thing. And no one stops to consider it's over. And if he hits me again, it's over, if he hits me again, it's over, and eventually I'm out the door as soon as I can get to the door.

凯蒂：然后我会让全世界都同意说，那是一件可怕的事情。但是，没有人停下来想一想，那件事儿已经结束了。如果他再给我一拳，那结束了，如果他再给我一拳，那结束了。最终，只要我能到达门口，我会尽快地跑出去。

Oprah: So, you're not saying then ,take the abuse？

奥普拉：所以，你难道不会说，就这么忍了吧？

---

作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-9 17:10
版权归作者所有，任何形式转载请联系作者。
作者：starinheart（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/note/664856884/

Katie: Oh, no. It's like if if I'm just shocked, and he hit me, then ,uh, I need to do something about that ,and , you know, do I want to live with someone who is going to hit another human being that way. So if I stay, the next time he hits me, he didn't hit me, I hit me. It's like his job is to hit, that's a man or a woman who hits people, that's his job. Everything has its job.everything has its job. His job is to hit woman if we use like a male in this case. (Oprah: Yes.) And ,uh,,,

凯蒂：哦，不。那就像是我只是很震惊，他打了我。然后，嗯，我需要做一些事情，你知道，我会问问自己，是不是还想和一个会那样打别人的人继续一起生活。所以，如果我留下来了，下一次他打我的时候，不是他打我，而是我打了我。打人就像是他的工作。他的工作就是去打女人，我们在这个案例中用男人来举例。（奥普拉：好的），嗯，，

Oprah: And if you stay...

奥普拉：如果你留下来了。。

Katie: If I stay, I can no longer say he hit me and shocked and suprised, I mean， he's doing his job.You know, the dog bites. (Oprah: okay.) Some dogs do, some dogs not, this dog bites. So he hits me, I'm not shocked or surprised, I hit me at that point. But then we go out into the world and we say he hit me, he hit me, and we all agree the world is a terrible place to live. We're not taking responsibility for our own, our own self. And so that the clearer we get, as we question what we believe about life and people and ourselves,  the clearer we get, the kinder we become, and ..

凯蒂：如果我事后留下来了，我再也不能说是他打的我，并感到震惊或者惊讶。我的意思是说，他只是在做他的工作而已。你知道，狗会咬人。（奥普拉：好的）。有些狗咬人，有些不咬，但是这只狗咬人。所以他打我，我并不会感到惊讶或吃惊，从某个意义上说，是我打的自己。我们出去和全世界说，我们说“他打我，他打我，他打我”，然后我们都一致同意这个世界太可怕了。但是，我们并没有为自己承担起责任，没有为我们自己承担责任。所以，当我们质询头脑中那些对生活、对人们以及对我们自己的那些想法的时候，我们会变得越来越清醒；而当我们越来越清醒的时候，我们会变得越来越善良。。

Oprah: And so, it's always, always about you, me?  (Katie: Always. always) . It's always about me.(Katie: Always,always.) It's never about the other person.(Katie: It can not be.) It can not be.(Katie: It can not be.) So, people who are pissing us off,,( Katie: We have to look to ourselves.). It's always about us?

奥普拉：所以，那总是，总是关于你，关于我的问题？（凯蒂：总是，总是）。总是关于我自己的？（凯蒂：总是，总是）。永远不可能是别人的问题？（凯蒂：那不可能）。所以，人们把我激怒了。。（凯蒂：我们需要看看自己。）总是关于我们自己的？

Katie: If we're going to get free.( The pissy?) Always，always, always, always, always.

凯蒂：如果你想要获得自由的话。（那些刺激？）总是, 总是, 总是, 总是。

Oprah: Always.(Katie: Yeah.) So we should, all I was gonna say, you ask yourself the four questions , We learn this again.(Katie:Yes) .Is it true.

奥普拉：总是。（凯蒂：是的）。所以我们应该，我想说的是，你可以向自己提出四个问题。我们再来学习一遍。（凯蒂：好的）。那是真的么？

Katie: Is it true? Can you absolutely know that it's true? How do you react when you believe that thought, what happens? The fourth question, who would you be without the that thought. And then turn the concept that you're inquiring of  around. And find opposites to see what is as true or truer. And just to notice is the concept that you're dealing with, is it peaceful or is it stressful? And if it's stressful ,and then I invite you , my job is to invite the world to the work. And the work again has no power. It is each of us individually, it is our power in our own answers that's set us free.

凯蒂：那是真的么？你能百分百确定那是真的么？当你相信了那个念头的时候，有何反应，发生了什么？第四个问题，没有那个念头的时候你是谁？然后，将那个你正在质询的念头反转。找出一些反转，看看那是不是也同样真实或者更加真实一些。然后，只是去观察你正在想着的念头，那是令人平静的？还是让你觉得有压力? 如果那是有压力的念头，那么我邀请你，我的工作就是邀请整个世界来练习这个功课。再次强调一下，功课本身并没有什么力量，而是我们每个人自己的，那是存在于对这些问题的回答中，那是我们自己的智慧让我们获得了自由。

Oprah: You're saying that  you are not some guru whose saying that my work is the answer.

奥普拉：你说过你不是那种心灵大师，会声称说我的功课就是答案。

Katie: Oh, my goodness, I‘m still working on me.

凯蒂：哦，我的天，我自己还在一直做着功课呢。

Oprah:You're saying that the work has the power as it is applied by each person.

奥普拉：你说只有将功课用于自身，它才会发挥效力。

Katie: As it is, as it is applied by each of us. yes.in each person.

凯蒂：只有功课被应用在我们每个人自己的身上，是的，应用于每个人自己。

---

作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-9 17:10
版权归作者所有，任何形式转载请联系作者。
作者：starinheart（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/note/664856884/

Oprah: Okay, but you know, what I think of, for , for many people who are new to this kind of thinking and even for myself , when I first started reading loving what is , and I hear about not resisting the moment, I understand that in certain, in a certain context, and then I think about, as an african-american ,growing up in the United States at a time when there was a whole group of people ,civil rights leaders , and people whose names made the history books and did not, who made it possible for me to be where I am, (Katie: Yeah) , to sit where I am today, and had they not resisted the injustices, had they not fought against , uh, what was the , what was considered the norm, you know, I wouldn't be here, nor would there have been progress or success. So, how do you explain of define that?

奥普拉：好吧，但是你知道，我想到，对于很多新手而言，甚至对我自己而言。当我第一次读《一念之转》这本书的时候，我看见你说不要对抗当下，我理解这句话在某些情况下是成立的，在特定情况下是成立的。但是，我又想到，作为一个非裔美国人，成长在美国这个国家，在这个国家曾经有那么一群人，比如民主权利的领袖，以及那些载入史册或者没有载入史册的人们，正是他们使我今天能够待在这里，（凯蒂: 是的），使我能够坐在我现在的位子上。难道他们不是因为抵抗了当时社会的不公平，难道他们不是还击了，嗯，当时的社会规则么？你知道，否则的话，我不可能在这里的，我也不可能进步或成功。所以，你怎么解释或者定义那些事情呢？

Katie：It's so slow. (Oprah:mm-hmm) .Even though it appears fast, it's , you know, in our lifetime, it's so slow, (Oprah:Right). I say, faster,  you know, the work is for people in a hurry(果冻补充，在另一个人视频中解释过这个huarry的意思，是hurry to end their suffering),you know ,for people suffering that are in a hurry , and, and ,and, yes that's true it's the best we had going for us on this planet.(Oprah:Right).But it is ready, it's, you know, this is a whole other paradigm that we're steping into， and basically as we believe our thoughts, we are going to fight, and that is slow. You know, can you imagine a world that is so ancient that they still kill each other? (Oprah: Yeah) . Where they still hate each other. Well, you know ,it's it's ,for me, that's an ancient world. And we're all just kind of ,just moving on to all this (Oprah: Evolving from this) ,Evolving from that, but yes those minds, and yes that courage, you know, that's the Gods there. (Oprah: It's necessary for that time.) .Absolutely.

凯蒂：那太慢了。（奥普拉：嗯）。即使它看起来很快，但是，它还是，你知道，对我们的一生而言，它还是太慢了，（奥普拉：对的）。我是说，可以更快地去，你知道，功课是对于那些想要更快一点儿终结痛苦的人。你知道，功课是对于那些正在遭受痛苦的人更快一些的解决方法。嗯，嗯，你说的那些事情是我们这个星球在当时最好的选择。（奥普拉：是的）。但是，现在已经，现在，，嗯，你知道，我们完全进入了一个新时代。简单来说，如果我们相信了我们的念头，我们就会去反抗。那太慢了。你知道，你能够想象当代世界是如此地老旧，现在人们之间还在互相杀害么? （奥普拉：是）我们现在还在互相杀害。嗯，你知道，那，那对我来说是太远古世界的事情了。我们都，嗯，慢慢地走到今天。（奥普拉：从这儿进化了），从那儿进化了。但是，那个时候的那些念头，那种勇气，你知道，是，是神圣的。（奥普拉：对于那个时代是必要的。）完全正确。

Oprah: And you're saying this is a different time and a different way of reacting.

奥普拉：你说这是一个不同的时代，有一个不同的对痛苦的终结方式。

Katie: Yes. (Oprah: Yeah), you know, you know, I have to tell you , Oprah, I , one of the most moving things I've ever seen in my life,  was I watched you not long ago, you were, you were facing, there was a crowd, it looked like all around you, and you had your arm in the air lilke this, and you said,"I am a free woman. " (Oprah: Oh.). And you turn behind you is I am a free woman, and I, it was, it just rang from my head to my toe. That's our birthright as a human being. Freedom, you know, I was in, I was in a very large prison, uh, one day when I was there working with these men. A man started screaming, and he screamed and he screamed, and it set every one of many other men off screaming. But he was screaming because he was shut in a cell with his head. I mean, he was shut, they shut him in there with himself. (Oprah:mm) And when you believe your thoughts, you are,  you are, that's hell.(Oprah: Right). And you put a Buddist monk in there, and you shut the door, he says "thank you".(Oprah:mm) Yeah.( Oprah: I got that). But this man that you lock up, you know, it's " I'm a terrible human being, I did it wrong, there's no hope for me.Uh, no one understands....". That is hell.

凯蒂：是的。（奥普拉：好吧）。你知道，你知道，我曾经告诉过你的，奥普拉， 我，嗯，我生命中最感动的一次，就是不久之前我看见你，你在一大群人中，他们好像都围绕着你，然后你向我这样伸出手臂，你说，“ 我是一个自由的女人。”（奥普拉：哦。）然后，你转过身又说，“我是一个自由的女人。” 那，你真的彻底打动了我。自由，是我们生而为人的天赋权利。自由，你知道，我曾经去过一个很大的监狱。嗯，有一天我在那儿和这些犯人做功课的时候。一个男人开始尖叫，他叫啊，叫啊，后来很多其他犯人也跟着尖叫起来。但是，他之所以尖叫，是因为他被关进了牢房，不得不面对自己的头脑。我的意思是说，他被锁了起来，警卫们将这个犯人与他自己的想法锁在了一起。（奥普拉：嗯）。其实如果你将一个佛教的和尚关进牢房并且锁上门，他会和你说“谢谢”。（奥普拉：嗯）是的。（奥普拉：我明白了）。但是这个被锁起来的男人，你知道，嗯，与他相伴的是那些念头，“我是一个可怕的人。我做错了。我再也没有希望了。啊，再也没有人能够理解我。。。”。。那是地狱。

Oprah: I got that epiphany just then, cuz right, there's only him in the cell with himself. (Katie:Yeah). And he's screaming. (Katie:Yes, oh my ..). Because he's left alone with his own mind. (Katie:Yeah). Well then,  don't, do, do you believe that some people deserve punishment for those things they just did.

奥普拉：我突然明白了你的意思。因为你说得对。在那间小牢房中，只有他自己与自己相伴。（凯蒂：是的）。所以他尖叫。（凯蒂：是的，老天。）因为他不得不与自己的这些念头相伴了。（凯蒂：是的）。好吧，你难道不，嗯，你不觉得人们应该为自己所做的坏事儿受到惩罚么？

Katie: Absolutely not. Oh my goodness, you know, no one would hurt or harm another human being if they were not confused, no one would kill another human being if they were not believe their thoughts. If someone walked up and, you know, if someone ..

凯蒂：我绝对不同意。我的天，你知道，如果他们不是犯糊涂的话，没有人真的会伤害另一个人；如果他们不相信自己的想法的话，没有人会杀害别人。如果有人走过来，嗯，你知道，如果有人。。

Oprah: This is just radical, this is so radical. How are we, what are we gonna do with the prisons and all those people  who are harming people?

奥普拉：这太颠覆了，这太颠覆了。那我们怎么，我们要监狱干什么呢？我们该怎么对待那些正在伤害别人的人呢？

Katie: You know, I say that if they question what they believe, then they rehabilitate it, and then when they come out, they are different human beings.

凯蒂：你知道，我说的是，如果他们能够质询自己所相信的念头，那么他们就能够重获新生。当他们出来的时候，他们就会成为完全不同的人。

Oprah: Okay. But do you believe that they have to be incarcerated, someplace?

奥普拉：好吧。但是你相信他们必须得被关进牢房，或者其他什么地方么？

Katie: Well, absolutely, if I hurt you and I hurt someone else, and I hurt some one else. Have you ever hurt  someone, you know that feels? (Oprah:Yes). My goodness, stop me, if you love me, stop me, lock me up, (Oprah:Yes), because it hurts me to harm another human being,(Oprah:Right), it's ，it's mercy.(Oprah:Yeah,right). But then give me some way to deal with my mind, so that I don't do it again.  (Oprah:mm-hmm), and that way is self-realization, God realization, and the work is, it is, it is the way to wake up.

凯蒂：嗯，绝对必要。如果我伤害了你，我伤害了其他人，嗯，如果我伤害了别人。你伤害过别人么？你知道那种感受么？（奥普拉：是的）。我的天，快阻止我吧，如果你爱我，请快点阻止我，将我锁起来吧。（奥普拉：是的）。因为伤害别人会让我自己受伤。（奥普拉：是的）。那是，把犯人关起来那是一种慈悲。（奥普拉：是的，对的）。但是，接着要给我一些可以处理我的念头的方法，这样我才不至于旧病重犯。（奥普拉：嗯）。那个方法就是自我解脱，上帝的解脱，嗯，功课，它就是，就是帮助人们觉醒的方法。

Oprah: And you're saying the self-realizaiton not live doesn't mean a thing. It's just a bunch of goo goo gah gah.

奥普拉：你说过，没有活出来的自我解脱一点儿意义也没有，那只不过是一堆不知所云的词句而已。

Katie: Yeah, exactly.

凯蒂：是的，完全正确。

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作者: starinheart    时间: 2018-4-9 17:11
版权归作者所有，任何形式转载请联系作者。
作者：starinheart（来自豆瓣）
来源：https://www.douban.com/note/664856884/

Oprah:Yeah. So incarcerate but in the process of incarceration, do allow them to do the work?

奥普拉：是的，所以是应该关进牢房的，但是在关在牢房的这段时间里，允许他们做功课么？

Katie: Yes.(Oprah: Yeah). Yes, very simple, very simple.

凯蒂：是的。（奥普拉：哦）。是的，功课非常简单，非常简单。

Oprah: Thank you, Byron Katie.

奥普拉：谢谢你，拜伦.凯蒂。

Katie: Oh, you're so welcome. these moments.

凯蒂：哦，你太客气了。

Oprah: Uh, unlike anybody,  you know, not only see the glass half full, you see it overflowing.

奥普拉：嗯，你知道，你和其他人不一样，你并不是一知半解，你真得把真相看穿了。

Katie: Well, the universy is friendly and I invite people not to believe me, but to test it for themselves.

凯蒂：嗯，宇宙是友善的。我也邀请人们不要相信我的话，而要自己亲自去探索真相。

Oprah: Thank you, what a joy.

奥普拉：谢谢，真好。

————————

完结。果冻-Angela 2018-4-8 ：）

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